I'm sure if there is a successfull counter to the Hissho affinity, which doesn't rely on either taking Hissho yourself or avoiding any weak players in the game, I'm sure we would all like to hear it.

Grubsnik wrote:
I'm sure if there is a successfull counter to the Hissho affinity, which doesn't rely on either taking Hissho yourself or avoiding any weak players in the game, I'm sure we would all like to hear it.

Step 1: Get Applied Casimir Effect before the Hissho (which shouldn't be hard enough because Hissho gets zero bonuses until he starts invading) and find him.

Step 2: Send a endless stream of ships to pound the Hissho - this is very important, do no stop sending ships until you beat the Hissho out of the game (again not a problem because you will hit before the Hissho gets any FIDS bonus).

Step 3: ???

Step 4: WIN



Just to clarify, step 2 might pose a problem if you don't have the right traits but this has absolutely nothing to do with Hissho or bushido. Anyone can take militarist and master of destruction so lets just leave it out of the present discussion.

Balam wrote:
Step 1: Get Applied Casimir Effect before the Hissho (which shouldn't be hard enough because Hissho gets zero bonuses until he starts invading) and find him.

Step 2: Send a endless stream of ships to pound the Hissho - this is very important, do no stop sending ships until you beat the Hissho out of the game (again not a problem because you will hit before the Hissho gets any FIDS bonus).

Step 3: ???

Step 4: WIN



Just to clarify, step 2 might pose a problem if you don't have the right traits but this has absolutely nothing to do with Hissho or bushido. Anyone can take militarist and master of destruction so lets just leave it out of the present discussion.

While it sounds reasonable , consider 2 practic points:



1-How many times during war when you conquer a planet, even having an upper militarily hand, it happens that that the enemy retakes the planet , even only for one turn?Imoh often and each such even boosts hisho atm for 20 % fids...



2-You must find him , and you must be reasonably near him , and pray its the only hisho in game. Now say it is a 6 players game with 2 hisho, not unreasonable assumption.While you play with the one hisho , the other one feeds on some weak players mniam mniam , and goes on with 80 % fids boost.You might also have no clear path to any hisho, and while you carve your path , they feed.



I agree with majority here, hisho atm are so overpowered i ask hihso based races to change before game or just join as one, so i can have a 80 % boost to.



Ah another one:



You might get attacked yourself and be to busy defending to take them out early, they feed you loose.

I was talking about a duel scenario. But it can work just fine even if you add more players to the equation.



1. I agree, that does happens. But you can just go straight to his home system massing your fleets in there or keep all his systems blockaded. You can do anything you want after you get control of his space.



2. Well it doesn't have to be YOU. Anyone near the Hissho can accomplish it or even better everyone against him. 2 Hisshos without bushido bonus can not hold 4 players.



I do understand where you are coming from though. In a 6 players game its hard enough to find a decent player, let alone 6, and Hissho loves weak players. Thats the real issue - a Hissho will be able to dominate a 6 players game only if they have an easy meal. When talking about balance I think its fair to imagine that all the parts have equal skill. A good player will beat a weak player no matter what.



For Hissho to become overpowered (get 80% early game) you really a weak link (weak players/AI). Take that away and Hissho is no big deal.

For a duel scenario i might agree that hisho are more or less ok .(tough the bonus for retaking planets after 1 turn still bothers me even for duel).



As for the rest the reality is 90 % of players you meet in public matches are weak with 1-2 per game good, so if bushido doesnt get nerfed/modified, only way to win in public matches would be to go hisho, which i think is bad for the game.

Anyone benefits from weak players though. Even without Hissho, having weak players near by gives you better opportunity for expansion and ships for dust recyclers/knowledge gathering.



You know, those games where some good player expands all over their weaker neighbors space and get x2 the score of everyone else by turn 25 while you are locked in a expansion race with a good player in your neighborhood.



So what can we do? Ban knowledge gathering, dust recyclers, master of illusion and militarist because they give a big advantage when you have weak players around?



People are just gonna find new ways to exploit weak players and that's the reason why I think they should not be considered when talking about balance.



I know I may sound like a crazy elitist but that's far from the truth. I'm not saying we should ban weak players, instead let 'em be exploited until they learn. If you want balance, play a duel againts a good player because you are not going to find it in a public 8 players game. Someone is going to get easily exploited neighbors, be it a Hissho eating em, someone milking em for dust/science, someone expanding all over em, it doesn't matter. It's going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it.

Well sure weak player near alwys is advantage but thing is with all other races they gain advantage x 1 , with hisho is like advantage x 5 from such a situation.



I can deal with a bit of bad luck situation , i dont want to deal with a hopeless one.



As for playing with weak players i beloeve a descritopn for games in lobby solves it: i would write i got like 30 games behind me and rarely loose one, experienced players only.

Btw you seem to know what you are talking about , hope to meet you ingame someday

do people play duels? If they are Hissho would be a terrible choice to use. 4-6 players seems to be the most common game size. The devs noted Hissho changes/nerfs in expansion so i have not been using Hissho as they clearly will receive some changes and I don't wish to be used to them as they are now. Cravers are stronger anyways under the current meta (host's game settings specifically). Many planets, Fast setting, yea +25% on top of bigger bonuses is even better.

murphylaw wrote:
then please, by all means, post your build here. Otherwise...

You act like this is league of legends... You know, build, counter... etc. Just noting ^__^

It is easy to counter this fyi...

DMT wrote:
It is easy to counter this fyi...

then please, by all means, post your build here. Otherwise...

Defensive traits are more effective than offensive ones in straight combat...

Population growth is king amongst fids. And offense is superior to defense BECAUSE the traits make it so. Master of destruction ensures defense gets the back seat, as does the rock, paper, scissors combat. I guarantee that whatever build you create cannot stand up to a full growth and offense build. Production is just too high and offense is overwhelming.

rush them lol, no chance to use them

That's what I thought...

No response on a build on how to beat the Growth+offense build.

Sooo, game's still broken.

The only build I've never been able to counter is a skilled Hissho player.



I have steamrolled aggressive folk before. Tech can counter them, but unfortunately not Hissho since bushido gives them a boost to science (up to 80%) in addition to production and growth that even the highest-tweaked sophons cannot match.

Chibiabos wrote:
The only build I've never been able to counter is a skilled Hissho player.



I have steamrolled aggressive folk before. Tech can counter them, but unfortunately not Hissho since bushido gives them a boost to science (up to 80%) in addition to production and growth that even the highest-tweaked sophons cannot match.

Yeah, while guerilla tactics are incredibly difficult to fight back (especially for newer players) there are still ways to counter them. And like you said, Hissho are the only ones who can't be effectively countered without pouring down on them with a 3v1.

If by guerrilla you mean kamikaze, even they won't last long as the hissho can build more suicidal fleets than you with their bushido fids bonus -- not just pure industry, but growing, expanding, for even stronger overpowering FIDS. Yeah, it pretty much takes at LEAST 3, but even if they are well skilled, a Hissho can still hang on. One tactic I that might work is massive organized, coordinated planetary blockades on Hissho so they had no access to their Titanium or other resources to build advanced ship.



It is unfortunately inadvisable to conquer Hissho worlds in most situations, as conquered worlds are defenseless due to the obscenely slow defense recovery, and they could retake their world back in one turn and get a fresh bushido buff in the process.



It is very tough



I would love to see a private game organized of skilled players versus one skilled hissho



But unfortunately even getting random players together is hard enough, waiting for specific players to get together would probably never happen unless millions of players start playing Endless Space multiplayer.



FYI, to the original poster, I've had several games won by wonder victory after early game aggressors were snuffed out by peaceful players countering them.

Chibiabos wrote:
If by guerrilla you mean kamikaze, even they won't last long as the hissho can build more suicidal fleets than you with their bushido fids bonus -- not just pure industry, but growing, expanding, for even stronger overpowering FIDS. Yeah, it pretty much takes at LEAST 3, but even if they are well skilled, a Hissho can still hang on. One tactic I that might work is massive organized, coordinated planetary blockades on Hissho so they had no access to their Titanium or other resources to build advanced ship.



It is unfortunately inadvisable to conquer Hissho worlds in most situations, as conquered worlds are defenseless due to the obscenely slow defense recovery, and they could retake their world back in one turn and get a fresh bushido buff in the process.



It is very tough



I would love to see a private game organized of skilled players versus one skilled hissho



But unfortunately even getting random players together is hard enough, waiting for specific players to get together would probably never happen unless millions of players start playing Endless Space multiplayer.



FYI, to the original poster, I've had several games won by wonder victory after early game aggressors were snuffed out by peaceful players countering them.

I've never played Hissho, so tell me something about their Bushido; if Razing Systems were added, would you be able to deny their bushido that way? As in, do they get bushido for colonizing systems, or only for conquering them?