Only for conquering or re-taking their own worlds that an enemy conquered from them. I'm not sure how razing would operate ... how many turns would it take, for instance, and if a planet is being invaded and its invasion would complete the same turn the razing would, would it be conquered or razed?

On Topic:

While an aggressive player may have better fleets, you as a peaceful player should ideally have better tech, and should be able to beat his fleets via tech advantage. You could also try and get other peaceful players to help out with the aggression.



Regarding Hissho:

Well the thing is, hissho affinity is only useful IF you conquer a system. Before that, it's like having no faction affinity whatsoever. The key part, is not letting the hissho invade systems. If you have a game full of evenly skilled players, then hissho is very much balanced. Then the hissho has to put a lot of effort into just invading one system.

More often than not though, you don't get games with evenly matched players. The hissho player typically ends up invading a lesser skilled player, and can quickly gain the 1.8x fids bonus. I personally propose that Buishdo bonus runs on a delay time of five turns, and that if a player takes back the conquered system, the bushido bonus is nullified. Furthermore, bushido bonus should also stack a max of three times.

Chibiabos wrote:
Only for conquering or re-taking their own worlds that an enemy conquered from them. I'm not sure how razing would operate ... how many turns would it take, for instance, and if a planet is being invaded and its invasion would complete the same turn the razing would, would it be conquered or razed?

That's what I'm wondering. I imagine razing systems would mean they re-colonize the system, not re-conquer it, meaning razing systems could possibly be an effective way to deny a Hissho player their bushido bonuses.

Your game is pointless to play in MP, unless ALL the players want to take an Offensive + Pop Growth race.



If only ONE player has this combo maxed out in a game, the game is basically already over.



Please fix the numbers and add some Negative Population growth modifiers to the Offensive traits.



thanks

You can counter all races and all tactics in this game!An early rush iss so easy defeatable.An hissho are not op.i played a lot of games versus hissoh players.Last time i must defend me versus to strong hissohs, and i defeat both

a good economy in midgame iss the best solution for all, with enough dust you change your fleet attributes fast and efficent.One perfect army with a good general can beet easily 4 or5 enemy fleets they have a wrong config.in early game iss the bushiodeffect no problem, what he bring the hissoh player?Nothig.Rockets destroy , or destroy not.Kinetik hits bad in the first phase of battle.Later if the hissoh has laser it is a strong race attribute, but you have your own(since, heroes, production) you must only use this.



What will you hear for a build?Every player has different configs, it gaves no standard build to counter a rusher, and that iss good.You must learn it selve with your race!

DarkSchemo wrote:
You can counter all races and all tactics in this game!An early rush iss so easy defeatable.An hissho are not op.i played a lot of games versus hissoh players.Last time i must defend me versus to strong hissohs, and i defeat both

Hissho ARE overpowered, and many veteran Hissho players will tell you the same. If you didn't get steamrolled by two Hissho players then they weren't playing the Hissho tactics properly, because there's really no counter to an experienced Hissho player. If you take their planet, they take it back and get massive bushido buffs. Hissho are the most difficult enemy to fight in the game because attacking them is like charging through a minefield.

I am a experience player i think.i have no problems with hissoh.A good player iss good with all races.my good economy ranged ther bushido mostly out.In combination with a good general its hart too defeat a strong fleet but its possibel and i see no problem with hissoh.I self play cravers or Sophons, but i have too a hissoh race.I prefer the sophons.You must just keep in mind that he played hissoh, dont send him garbage fleets to load his bushido.

DarkSchemo wrote:
I am a experience player i think.i have no problems with hissoh.A good player iss good with all races.my good economy ranged ther bushido mostly out.In combination with a good general its hart too defeat a strong fleet but its possibel and i see no problem with hissoh.I self play cravers or Sophons, but i have too a hissoh race.I prefer the sophons.You must just keep in mind that he played hissoh, dont send him garbage fleets to load his bushido.

I would like to direct you to this thread:



/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12428-proposed-nerf-hissho-rebalance



More on this topic is covered there.

Let's eliminate some misleading statements here. Winning through wonders in an 8 player game doesn't "counter" anything, it just means you were likely not near the hissho player, the hissho wasnt good enough, or 2 hisshos spent the day fighting while the rest of the game spanked their tech tree. Anyone can win an 8 player game given a good position and peaceful neighbors and/or bad opponents. Did you win? sure. Did it counter the hissho? not at all. If you didnt have 6 players of meat shield/allies/tech trading monkeys, i think you would be dead, and being as i have played several games with you, i know you would be dead.



Using ideally, makes a fantasy scenario. You are hoping for the best situation in which your plan will work, anything else and it fails. Ideally, the hissho player will go afk at game start, and you can kill them at your leisure.



Speaking of same strategy, I think your best chance of survival is to also spam tiny ships and just trade in fights. Honestly you can only win if you prevent them from taking a system ever, and in an 8 player game, there is likely someone easy to hit first. Negate the fids bonus and they become just like any other race (or worse) trying to rush. If you lose a system, you will die. Resist as you will, you will die.



DarkSchemo has clearly not played against veteran players, or is bonkers. maybe both. How can i get onto other regions for mp? i must see these amazing hissho counters. Because if it truly exists, then the games multi is worth playing again, maybe.

Kyu wrote:
Let's eliminate some misleading statements here. Winning through wonders in an 8 player game doesn't "counter" anything, it just means you were likely not near the hissho player, the hissho wasnt good enough, or 2 hisshos spent the day fighting while the rest of the game spanked their tech tree. Anyone can win an 8 player game given a good position and peaceful neighbors and/or bad opponents. Did you win? sure. Did it counter the hissho? not at all. If you didnt have 6 players of meat shield/allies/tech trading monkeys, i think you would be dead, and being as i have played several games with you, i know you would be dead.



Using ideally, makes a fantasy scenario. You are hoping for the best situation in which your plan will work, anything else and it fails. Ideally, the hissho player will go afk at game start, and you can kill them at your leisure.



Speaking of same strategy, I think your best chance of survival is to also spam tiny ships and just trade in fights. Honestly you can only win if you prevent them from taking a system ever, and in an 8 player game, there is likely someone easy to hit first. Negate the fids bonus and they become just like any other race (or worse) trying to rush. If you lose a system, you will die. Resist as you will, you will die.



DarkSchemo has clearly not played against veteran players, or is bonkers. maybe both. How can i get onto other regions for mp? i must see these amazing hissho counters. Because if it truly exists, then the games multi is worth playing again, maybe.

i played a lot and i played also versus the best in my region.That you can not build a wonder versus hissoh ok...thats truebut what is your problem to beat hissoh?they dont have imba ships, you can counter an hissoh with the same tactic like all toher races i see ther no problem.Dont talk over me and my experience if you dont play with me, you are a unashamedly whiner.i have my own opinion and i dont see a problem in hissoh as race.work on your tactic before whining.Its the hissoh bonus, he must play aggresive to get him.if you scout a hissoh neighbour you know what comes as next...some small things for the hissoh must be fixed, its not ok to become bushido to attack a ascout or a colonyship or its not ok become the windbonus for the same system why he has recover it.But that are small balancing aspects and they dont make the hissoh overpowerd.

Simple fact DarkSchemo:

any good Hissho player will have begun invading by turn 30 or so, and by turn 50 will be operating at 1.8x bonus.

and if he is any good, he will continue to aggressively invade and maintain that bonus.



So the question becomes: how do you counter someone who is operating 1.8x FIDS while you got regular FIDS production?

Well, veteran players rarely play 8P maps I've noticed, because it just takes too long for MP, and expecting all 8 to actually stay for the game which would run for like 150 turns (probably 10+ hours?) is all but impossible.



As the others have said.

Assuming everyone is skilled, yes its possible to stop the 38 or so ships at turn 30.



However, in MP, a game filled with highly skilled players just doesn't happen.



With regards to the OP, I would like to face someone's pop growth offensive faction with my amoeba sometime. I use no extra pop growth, but I get the feeling I'd be able to hold my own, and then counterattack with high tech units.

The biggest advantage of being defender, after all, is really short logistics chain and ability to manufacture counter-ships right away.



If anything, what breaks MP is the completely random maps that can give you a system with 3 easily colonizable planets right beside you, while the enemy player gets nothing.

Why dont you make a no Hisso game?

DMT wrote:
Why dont you make a no Hisso game?

That's really my one and only standing rule in my games: No Hissho.



What's unfortunate is when hosts with full games allow Hissho, even with new players in the match. The excuses I've heard are that it's a "learning experience" or some inane bullcrap about how "everyone" can just gang up on the Hissho and make everything happy and fun and defeat the menace.



A. The only lesson anyone will get is that Hissho are OP. GG idiot host, we're all pretty aware of that now enough to inform new players right off the bat. No need to put them through hell. (also LOL when your stupid match goes on to last around 35 turns after people who don't want to play against Hissho leave, as expected.)



B. Don't tell everyone how to play your match because you don't want to make it fair. Players didn't join your full game to be forced to ally with you and start attacking someone on the other side of the map ASAP because you can't set down a simple lobby rule.



Hissho, especially the insane min/max build that's been perfected recently, are OP. End of story.



The community should admonish hosts who allow them in public games. It's pathetically antisocial, unless there's a vote taken and the majority of NON HISSHO players agree to play with them

Im wonderd that all people her think that ther opinion iss the only one in the world.

I never see players how leaf a server why a hissoh join...

Simple fact DarkSchemo:

any good Hissho player will have begun invading by turn 30 or so, and by turn 50 will be operating at 1.8x bonus.

and if he is any good, he will continue to aggressively invade and maintain that bonus

Simple fact:You can have a much better economy with other races, long time before the hissoh get any windbonus or bushido.

What bring the hissoh the wind bonus realy.If he get a 20 %percentbonus at first in midgame on a low wind production....you can outrange him in economy long time before, producing more ships, have a higher techlevel, colonizing more systems etc. etc.

To invade in earlygame a system you need 8-20Rounds...with a 7/7 Fleet.Sry, if somebody say thats not be counter make too much mistakes or have the wrong Raceconfigs.

The community should admonish hosts who allow them in public games. It's pathetically antisocial, unless there's a vote taken and the majority of NON HISSHO players agree to play with them

simply lol

Flat out anyone can stop hissho from snowballing their FIDS bonus. Its the same as fighting any other race, the issue at hand is that once they are snowballed, its nigh impossible to win against it, and if you can win it may take hours and hours of smashing into a seemingly endless wave of ships.



it takes 4-12 turns to take a system, usually. More 7 fleets are going to show up every few turns, it may say 20 or whatever when the first ones get there, but its not going to last 20 turns.



Everybody wants to play the game the way they find it fun. Some ways ruin that experience for others. For me, i like to make enormous spheres of influence, i cant do that if im being smashed. I also like to run people over sometimes, their peaceful ways ruin my experience. Sitting and teching in a peaceful galaxy is a giant boring waste of time to me. I can sit and tech in single player. I could kill things in single player also, but its the human randomness and interactions i am looking for.

Good god. There are simple reasons we think you're wrong DarkSchemo:



1. You give no solid reason for your opinion. Any reasons you state are threadbare at best, and full of holes.

a) We've never seen you online, despite your claims of "playing against the best".

b)

To invade in earlygame a system you need 8-20Rounds...with a 7/7 Fleet.Sry, if somebody say thats not be counter make too much mistakes or have the wrong Raceconfigs.

Try adding an invasion destroyer. That's a destroyer with 5-6 invasion modules, and nothing else (basically, a support ship once you started conquering a system, and set tons of ships on 'defense' mode so support ships don't get attacked). That 600-720 invasion value makes it incredibly easy to conquer systems in early-game, which have low defense points. You can build more of these if needed. Replace 8-20 rounds with 2-4.

c) Also, by turn 30, if this rush strat is performed properly, you should have 25-35 ships, equipped with a mix of missiles and kinetics (and 3-5 systems settled). They may not be the greatest quality ships, but quantity matters. And putting 25-35 ships into a system with 1 planet, 3-4 pop makes it very easy to conquer.

If you went pure tech and building focus, you will not have the ships to fight that off (and frankly, most players don't know how to fight a mass swarm of ships off anyways).



2. You ignore the facts we mention about the practicalities of actually playing MP.

a) It's been consistently proven that in MP games, there are poor players who make easy prey.

b) Players leave these games, getting replaced by AI. And as we all know, unless you play on the top 2 difficulty levels (which doesn't happen in MP), the AI is just terribly bad.



3. There's 1 broken combo which makes Hissho ridiculous:

a) The semi-bug where any 'lost' system can be re-conquered in 1 turn (I feel it's a bug anyways)

b) Hissho affinity increases and resets when retaking these systems.



So you grab a system, let the enemy re-take it (by sending all your ships to invade the next system, leaving this one open), and then reconquer it. Right there, you got a 40% FIDS boost.

Basically, if you don't cover every conquered or re-conquered system with a fleet of ships, Hissho can boost FIDS massively. And how many top level combat fleets can you leave sitting around for the 10-20 turns it takes for the system defense to recover? And honestly speaking, it's not hard to build a counter fleet, sent it at that system, destroy the defending fleet, and conquer it.



4. As Kyu said, if its 1 on 1, stopping their FIDS bonus is very possible if you're skilled.

But in a practical MP match, Bushido is OP. And 1 or 2 careless mistakes in leaving systems open can instantly lose you the game (something that won't happen against any other faction).





Unless you can somehow prove that all these statements I made are completely false, I don't see any reason you're right, while Kyu, I, and all the other MP players who agree bushio is OP are wrong.

hmm all players...2 or 3 persons in a forum are not all MP.



Your argument are all theoretik.You will say:

1.the hissoh build without problems in 30!Turns 35 Ships.Thats only possibel if you force all attributes of your race to shipbuilding.even then its hardly possibel...only on best circumstances.

2.The hissoh ships are super powerfuel at this time you will say me and the most people cant counter it yes?How many weapons and defence you can bring under in the first both shipclasses if you including so much invasionmodules that you can invade a system in 2-4 rounds....thats theorycrafting not the real practise.

3.The hissoh has no problem to finace his rush, if he build so fast so many ships he cant colonizing many systems and his econmy iss crap then.His Dust and research iss very low.

4.At round 30 i have researched the 100% wind bonus, the hissoh has a loooong way to this research with this tactic.What bring him the small 20% bonus on his low economy versus this?Nothing.the bushido bring him noting in the earlygame and the earlyer midgame if he use rockets, and he must use rockets for a rush.

5.In earlygame a admiral is more effictively in defense as in offens attributes.With a general you can counter so easy rocketfleets



let us make a example:

in a 8player game with a great galaxy we have 1 hissoh.The hissoh found a easy victim, conquer his 3-4 systems and become in average a 40-60% bonus on his economy over 30rounds.The enemy fleets are dieing long time before he invade all the systems.After he destroyed the victim, he force his fleet versus an new enemy.the bushido iss alreday long time over before he forced his fleet and can attack.The invaded systems are for 10Rounds only crap and cant be really used for anything. Now he meet a good player that forced research and economy from start up.In the best case he has a small advantage in CP or fleetpower, but most of his fleets are very old and crap at this time of the game(round50-60).What iss now overpowered her?His Ecobonus runs out, you dont must stay long versus him before his economy comes back to his small standard level.Your production is now faster and your ships are much earlyer at the front with newest technologie and shipclasses, espically optimized for the aggresors weapons and defense systems.

A aggressor iss evry time in disadvantage in Endles.If the hissoh meet a good player for his early rush his chance to win going down round at round.Or the victim can chat that he are being invaded.You can intervene earlyer and the hissoh has then no chance to get anything.

And now you will say me thats overpowered?I stay to my opinion, its no problem to beat a rushing hissoh.



To your second argument:i dont ignore any facts.

To your third argument:if you let the hissoh do this or going self in this trap it is your mistake, not a bug.