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Pointless to play in MP...

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12 years ago
Sep 1, 2012, 12:14:34 PM
Fenrakk101 wrote:
You couldn't even follow your own opinion.



Your train of thought:

>Hissho are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced with all the other factions, even though I'm the only person on the entire forums who claims this

>Hissho are unbalanced and need a nerf to be balanced, but are still not overpowered because if you nerf a race that's balanced it's still balanced(???)




It give a great difference between a littel unbalancing and totaly overpowered.
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12 years ago
Aug 26, 2012, 5:03:20 PM
Balam wrote:
Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?



Dark's points about how it's possible to counter a Hissho player are perfectly valid if we are talking about a 1 on 1 or even 4 or 8 players match if everyone knows what they are doing.



Others comments about how bushido might be unfair are also valid if we are talking about set ups where the Hissho gets easy prey (AI, early quitters, novice players).



Both opinions can be right or wrong depending on the situation.



If you really want a "balanced experience" play 1 on 1 because you are not going to find balance in a 8 players match. It's hard enough to balance a 1 on 1 game. Heck, even when talking about chess some people say that white have the advantage while others swear by black. Now, to have a balanced 8 players game with so many variables like different factions, traits, luck and skill levels is pretty much impossible. Hissho aggravates the problem because they get such a raw bonus from easy meat, but pretty much anyone can take advantage of a weak player.



I understand that for a lot of people MP equals to a 8 players public game with some friends and a bunch of random people. In this case I agree that a good Hissho player might be a bit to much but I don't see an easy way out. Even if they nerf Hissho there is always gonna be some way to exploit the system and people who play to win are gonna use and abuse it.



To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.




I agree with your opinion.

it gives so much solutions, oterh races other tactics.Its too not good to let live a good sophon only in peace with his neighbours.Itsa better to attack him, and if you have a craver or hissoh neigbhour you must be prepared if he attacking you.Its the nature of the race and it has reason that the guy has choosen this race.



The idea with a testmacht is good.Take hissoh and find a friend that playing very well with his hissoh race.I ask a friend too for a testmach, he use horatio and iss a very strong player that attacking early too.

We will see if the hissoh are OP.
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12 years ago
Aug 26, 2012, 9:11:46 PM
Balam wrote:
To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.




Not everyone is playing to win, they're playing for fun. But that doesn't mean losing is fun.

That's why people drop out of 8p games when they discover they have an abysmal starting position. And that's why people don't want the Hissho to be overpowered.

The Hissho cannot be perfectly countered in a 1v1 game. You can try, and maybe succeed, but if the Hissho player knows what he's doing then you're not even going to have the benefit of a chance.

The game is not balanced, because the Hissho are in fact overpowered. Just because you like having a game where one race makes it a significant challenge to win, doesn't mean the game is balanced. You might like it, but some people want to have a game where UE can beat Hissho just as easily as Hissho can beat UE or Sophons.
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12 years ago
Aug 26, 2012, 9:19:14 PM
The Hissho cannot be perfectly countered in a 1v1 game. You can try, and maybe succeed, but if the Hissho player knows what he's doing then you're not even going to have the benefit of a chance.


i say you have the same chance like the hissoh in 1v1battle with a other good race like sophons, Humans or amöba.Somebody now good hissoh players?let us make a test, over a discussion we dont come to a piont.
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12 years ago
Aug 29, 2012, 10:43:18 PM
I agree hisho are overpowered imho even badly.



I stopped playing them , unless there is another hisho in game, because imho it isnt fair.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 1:35:40 AM
Balam wrote:
Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?




Honestly? It's more frustration at how he posted in multiple threads that the game is balanced when it's not, and the sheer ridiculousness of some of the statements he has made. Among other things, he needs to realize that balance, fun, and a challenge are all completely different things.



And Darkschemo: Apparently you have never even heard of admin heroes, legendary hero attribute (so you start with +15prod on the hero), and the +3 production/pop planet anomaly?

This setup alone will allow your starting planet to manufacture ships in bulk very easily.



At this point, I've given up and will probably ignore him. Arguing on the internet is utterly pointless and a waste of time.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 3:52:16 AM
I am not sure about that. Let me quote this:



“It’s Too Good!”



Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!



The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.



Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.” Let’s look at an example.




Personaly I don't think that the game is mature enough for all the "NERF IT" outrcry, specially because most of the people crying about unbalance aren't exactly the best players around.



When playing with my Hissho against good players using other factions, my overall score will be lower then the others until I start to get bushido bonuses (because I got mostly traits which help me fight while other factions will be getting traits which help 'em growth). Most of those good players who outgrow my Hissho before bushido (which really any decent player should be able to do because of my traits) don't think Hissho is OP at all. They say its slow, that it's nothing special and I agree. It's not like you will be getting 80% after your first rush. Against a good player it takes a lot of effort to even invade a single system.



When playing with not so good players usually I got the highest score BEFORE I even get the bushido bonus. Guess what? This kind of players form the majority (but not all) of players crying about how Hissho is OP. They are the first ones to cry in game "HISSHO IS SO OP" and I'm like wtf, I didn't even invade yet. I mean, if someone can't overgrow a Hissho with nothing but war traits, something is very wrong with their strat. Maybe they should work out on that instead of crying OP.



Dark talks about how Hissho in 1x1 and I agree with him. Before Hissho invades he got no bonus at all while other factions start with some sort of bonus already. It's not unreasonable to think that a good player would be able to get his initial advantage and run with it preventing the Hissho to invade his systems at all, or even better, rushing the Hissho himself.



I do agree that a Hissho getting 80% early on is very powerfull but that only happens if the Hissho gets an AI or a noob to eat. When playing against good players that's not going to happen anyways and that's why I think this is a no-issue.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 10:03:03 AM
This iss exactly that what i mean and i try to discribe her.But it looks like that nobody will her any arguments.

And Darkschemo: Apparently you have never even heard of admin heroes, legendary hero attribute (so you start with +15prod on the hero), and the +3 production/pop planet anomaly?

This setup alone will allow your starting planet to manufacture ships in bulk very easily.


And now?I can use it with Hissoh, Craver, Horatio and all the other races. A littel test have show me yesterday that the "säer" have a very strong race affinity.I think ther are underrated but must test it with a own race in multiplayer before i can create a meaningfuel opinion.



Balam has discribe this very well.In normal case the Hissoh are in disadvantage at start.I´ve rushed sometimes a hissoh before he build only one ship.

Yesterday i joined a running game(Round3) 3 Humans and one Ai, a Hissoh standard race.I conrtoled then the vanilla Hissoh and was in a great disadvantage from start up.A great Map, i found the first other player in round 35...Before i attack anybody i obsolete the other players and attack then the host.After he losses his fleet he quit.The standard race configs from hissoh are trash, nonetheless i obsolete the others with a trash race.

What i will say with this example is that you can play well with all configs if you create a strategy based on the advanatges of the race.



Build a anti-rush race and use it if you have a lot of aggresive races in a galaxy.I corrected some post her that i doing before and i agree with you that the FIDS Bonus can bring to a very powerfuel level from Hissoh and this is in special conditions to strong, but not OP!A littel cap for the FIDS bonus is enough to nerf the hissoh sufficient, or as option that they loose a piece from the bonus if they lost self a system.



I wirght it allready before, on smaller maps the hissoh are in advantage, on bigger maps i can research for an example with the sophons the 100% WIND-Bonus before the hissoh can reach or attack any enemy or become any bonus.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 2:37:48 PM
Dark, you JUST agreed that hissho need nerfs to their FIDS affinity. Congratulations on agreeing with what we have been trying to tell you and other people. Now you seem to understand better.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 3:03:23 PM
No offense Dark, but...I am about as easy going a player as you will find, having fun to me is not necessarily predicated upon winning. However, even I stopped joining games with Hissho players until Amplitude nerfs them. It's just a collasal waste of discretionary free-time. I'm not the best player in the world by any stretch of the imagination. But, I have tried every conceivable strat to counter the cascading FIDS bonus by turn 30 Hissho rape-fest and it can't be done. If the Hissho player has half a clue how to fully exploit the OP'd-ness it's simply game over before it even really gets going.



This is a shame, because the game is most fun during the mid stages when everyone has built-up and tech'd up a bit. But, unfortunately with a Hissho and his myriad doom-stack fleets running amok all over the map, we don't get to enjoy the mid-game.



Anyone who says Hissho are not grotesquely over-powered are either smoking something or trolling.



Zazen
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 4:28:46 PM
i do not really understand why some people have so big problems with the Hissoh Faction, but when it is a real problem for the community or for a big part of player then i am the last that have a problem with a Hissoh nerf.

But i think some people her do really exaggerate the "problem" and i have a problem with exaggerations.

Hissohs and all the other races are welcome in my server, i dont make differences between the races.



Anyone who says Hissho are not grotesquely over-powered are either smoking something or trolling.


This iss trolling.And you call me troll yes....very funny.If you would not follow my opinion then it is your choice but dont talk trash over peoples that you not know.
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 5:07:59 PM
DarkSchemo wrote:
i do not really understand why some people have so big problems with the Hissoh Faction, but when it is a real problem for the community or for a big part of player then i am the last that have a problem with a Hissoh nerf.

But i think some people her do really exaggerate the "problem" and i have a problem with exaggerations.

Hissohs and all the other races are welcome in my server, i dont make differences between the races.





This iss trolling.And you call me troll yes....very funny.If you would not follow my opinion then it is your choice but dont talk trash over peoples that you not know.




You couldn't even follow your own opinion.



Your train of thought:

>Hissho are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced with all the other factions, even though I'm the only person on the entire forums who claims this

>Hissho are unbalanced and need a nerf to be balanced, but are still not overpowered because if you nerf a race that's balanced it's still balanced(???)
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12 years ago
Aug 31, 2012, 5:46:21 PM
Tiggy wrote:
remember when everyone used to say the hissho were underpowerd?


This statement was made before multiplayer was released, and it was based on the fact that the AI does not know how to get/maintain the bushido bonus. This is still true.



There are two problems here.

1. Bushido can be "exploited" by taking and retaking the same planet, or by "collusion" with a friendly ally

2. Even without exploiting, +80% on FIDS is pretty strong.



For (2), it is easy to change the bonus so it is +10% per system instead of +20%, and easy to change so that it does not apply to science (which fits with their "Space Cadet" limitation). I have done this in the community mod:



/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/15801-released-community-bug-fix-balance-mod



Is this enough of a solution? Or is something else requested?
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12 years ago
Aug 26, 2012, 4:46:27 PM
Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?



Dark's points about how it's possible to counter a Hissho player are perfectly valid if we are talking about a 1 on 1 or even 4 or 8 players match if everyone knows what they are doing.



Others comments about how bushido might be unfair are also valid if we are talking about set ups where the Hissho gets easy prey (AI, early quitters, novice players).



Both opinions can be right or wrong depending on the situation.



If you really want a "balanced experience" play 1 on 1 because you are not going to find balance in a 8 players match. It's hard enough to balance a 1 on 1 game. Heck, even when talking about chess some people say that white have the advantage while others swear by black. Now, to have a balanced 8 players game with so many variables like different factions, traits, luck and skill levels is pretty much impossible. Hissho aggravates the problem because they get such a raw bonus from easy meat, but pretty much anyone can take advantage of a weak player.



I understand that for a lot of people MP equals to a 8 players public game with some friends and a bunch of random people. In this case I agree that a good Hissho player might be a bit to much but I don't see an easy way out. Even if they nerf Hissho there is always gonna be some way to exploit the system and people who play to win are gonna use and abuse it.



To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.
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12 years ago
Sep 1, 2012, 6:33:13 PM
DarkSchemo wrote:
It give a great difference between a littel unbalancing and totaly overpowered.




To be technical, if it's unbalanced in their favor, they're overpowered.
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12 years ago
Sep 10, 2012, 6:24:16 PM
One thing I notice quite often are players that just spread like cancer plopping down on any systems they can grab in mad free for all expansion. Well that might work well against the AI, but against a Hissho player your just laying little cookies out everywhere for him(her) to eat. Tone back the early land grab to important systems and to what you can protect and you blunt quite a bit of Hissho power. You can also try playing on smaller maps with fewer stars to similar effect. I'd also be worried about a possible "cheat" where 2 Hissho players continually swap systems back and forth for huge mutual bonuses.. that's definitely one that doesnt have a simple play solution.
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12 years ago
Sep 18, 2012, 10:28:54 PM
Or...maybe you just need to get better at playing it? Growth + Offense is only one of many viable builds in MP.
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12 years ago
Sep 19, 2012, 2:13:41 AM
I hate using the learn to play line, I really do, but, learn to play. Every strategy has a counter. Just because you dont know it or do not know how to use it correctly does NOT mean the game is broken.
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