Hey Eystein, very impressive victory. I'm not sure about your reasoning that your fast difficulty would necessarily scale into a turn 90 normal victory given that your cravers trait will diminish. turn 60 onwards you are 25% less fids on each planet, no?



I think the devs need to scale down the cravers affinity based on gamespeed. Theoretically it becomes really powerful on fast.

InFlamesWeTrust wrote:
How do you people have the time to play or patience to play on anything other than fast? No offence to Endless space or anything but if the game lasts longer than 100 turns I'm asleep and gone. I suppose its because I like to win fast and get something else done as well but I seriously can't understand how people can play 10+ hours on one game. The best bits at the start with the exploring and fighting to get a good start over the other factions.

Anyway, I think this is a little off topic so I shall return to the topic in hand. I can see how its possible to get a science victory that fast if you're so inclined to head straight for one, I myself have had a victory of the science kind in 62 turns. This 53 turn victory however would be quite a hard record to beat. I shall have to try and see if I can manage to outdo this one. When I get the time that is.

I personally love long games. Always played Civ5 on epic speed. Playing on normal in ES because I am still experimenting with builds / start ups / expansions etc. You don't have to play the whole 10 hours at once? I can't play more than 2-3 hours tops, after that I starting to lose focus of details, that's what save game is for



Regarding DMT achievement - which is very impressive (saw some similar ones in civ5 on deity before last patch), but since you mentioned this is with a custom race, am wondering how would you fare with a standard race as far as science victory goes?



PS: don't get me wrong, but custom races are more powerful (since you can customize them to your heart to fit a specific victory type or gameplay) than standard ones, and that's one of the reason am not playing them in SP (yeah is nice to experiment at times, but why abuse the AI and play from the better position, the AI is not that great to pose a threat even with normal factions, for MP games I can totally understand preference of customization), same as I am not abusing the AI within the trade system, sure it can make winning easier and give you huge advantages, but... beating AI in a strategy game shouldn't be about abusing it, but about outplaying it - IMHO

I am going to try a newbie game (i beat the game on endless allready) to try and beat that science victory. I think endless difficoulty you would get far too many planets to have good diplomatic relationships. Maybe in a perfect game you would have the Ai still like you and manage to trade your techs until the end game where you run ahead. Imho the key is not to have 30% science but to grow quickly and settings like old planets for more tech.



Possible also a normal game with naive to have most happiness also could work to slingshot your tech early.



Endless game could perhaps work if you are very lucky and the AI dont hate you early so you can trade techs.

Anelyn the real challange is challanging yourself. Not the ai. To make a perfect game. By the way i am in the gauntlet for science victory in civ5 and a honorable mention in civ4 where i have a great spy named after me "eystein the wise".

Eysteinh - cool! (about civ4 / civ5)



I like to challenge myself when I play MP, in SP is more about immersion in the game universe and having a great time, trying stuff out, not necessarily winning every single time. Really looking forward to see MP fixed for ES so we can have some great tourneys and competition going (hopefully they will implement either a free spectator or replay, this will add a lot to MP scene - once they fix the stability mind you of course haha). ES can end up as a huge MP hit, and I really hope the developers are working to get it there

Yes anelyn I agree. This game really has the making of a classic. So when we are all hoping for the multiplayer to be fixed it is not because we dont like the game it is the opposite

Ok I finished a science victory in 45 turns even I had -50% science for 20 turns because of an anomaly. Granted I had also several exploration events that gave +10% bonuses to my science but without the -50% I would probably be under 40 turns. I think with the perfect game maybe you can get under 35 turns. But you would have to restart a lot because you cant have any negative science happening. I also started a bit late on science phase after my growth phase. Probably I could have shaved off some turns with less population but more overall science.



I used my craver faction that is all set towards growth: (the most important traits)

- Fast movement (2 extra) to get a colony first turn if possible

- All the growth trait I could pick + craver

- +10 influence early to gain as much dust to buy food buildings

- 30% + dust to have as much dust as posssible

- +1 dust per population - i had some 1708 population so that gets to become quite a big ammount in the end.

- optimism to keep expanding (still needed lots of happiness)

- Tundra tech allready bough so i can settle first turn

- builder +++ for cheaper food exploit (24 gold on fast with all faction traits counted.)



Early game: you need to refit your scout to only engines, its vital to get exploration events as soon as possible. Buy colony ships and also food exploit (its only 24 dust on fast)

Expand like mad. Good tech planets first, preferable with food and production too. Jungle is great, ocean is cool, thundra is ok.



mid game: Watch your expansion. I was at 99% towards an expansion victory. Get all the good resources so you have bonuses (+20% approval +10 FIDS etc) Keep getting techs that keep you happy, keep you growing and keep you teching.

And buy expansion close to the new planets and inside your own ring of influence you develop your planets to afford all the dust buying.



end game: Tech tech tech. I set all my planets to tech priorty and just bough everything i could every single turn. Priority: tech, then happiness then production.



To give you an idea of the growth speed:



Turn5: 7 population. 57 science per turn. 2 Systems. | I also got luck and got anomaly that gave + population and i had ships on the way to expand at this point that is why big growth turn 10.

Turn10: +376 science +250 dust. 40 population 13 systems. | i got anomaly that gave me +40 happiness and I could max dust and buy colony ships for fast expansion. Also remember growth happens exponentially faster the more you get. I had 27 population and 8 systems turn 9.

Turn 20: +3722 science +3312 dust. 304 population 49 systems. | i got -50% science anomaly with 30% more expensive ships but i was allmost done expanding at this time.

Turn 31: +13018 science +6258 dust. 1064 population 79 systems. | Had to stop expansion or I would win expansion victory. Stopped at 99% towards expansion victory.

Turn 40: +38065 science +17490 dust. 1334 population 79 systems. | all focus was on getting tech up these turns. Also the -50% penalty was dropped.

Turn 45: +96682 science +34634 dust. 1708 population 79 systems.



How can you expand this fast? example: 2 systems both grow 1 each turn. they build 2 ships in 1 turn. They expand the same turn so now 4 systems next turn. 4 systems grow in 1 turn because you buy the food exploit. 2 of them expand again. 6 systems turn 3. Now 2 buy food exploit and 4 is expanding. 10 systems turn 4. Now 8 is expanding and 2 food exploit. so 18 systems turn 5. Now 12 is expanding and 8 food exploit so 18+12=30 systems turn 6. Thats the theoretical ideal expansion. Even with half that (2 turn growth) you still expand extremly fast. (if you buy the +10 industry and later the +6 FIDS and then food exploit you will look at 1 turn growth and 1 turn expansion. Early game you mostly have 2 turn expansion and buying of colony ships to make them 1 turn sometimes. Your heroes should be used well to make sure you are growing faster (+20 food).



Since in fast everything is 50% cheaper (half price) than normal this game would have ended turn 90 on normal. (actually probably less since movement is not halved also so I could have expanded relativly more fast in normal.) I think its possible to get around turn 60-65 in normal speed in a perfect game. (35*2 but -5 turns since your ships move just as fast in normal as in fast.)



I think that easiest difficoulty is best for science game as the AI will hate you if you expand too much on the higher difficulty and you will divert too much towards production of millitary and happiness. But i think you could get around turn 40+ in a perfect game on endless difficulty. You have to make some friends and trade tech and also conquer population to make up for the army and happiness you have to build. Dont be fooled by my play on the easiest difficulty, I would have crushed the AI with this expansion speed on endless difficulty too. (I did in this game: /#/endless-space/forum/34-faq/thread/14681-craving-food) the only reason I didnt use that difficulty is because I think it is not optimal for the fastest science victory.
science victory turn 45.zip

Really really nice



Wondering what would be a standard sophon race science victory on the same map settings (as they are presented as the science race). Probably they can't make it under turn 65-75 I'd guess?

Well i think growth of population matters more than the science bonus of the Sophon. Also they have to have a very low tax rate that slows down the expansion rate. But in theory you only need the high science the last turns when it counts the most, and they have very cheap colony ships. I think you would have to play a bit different and produce colony ships pretty much the whole game for sophons to have high enough growth. I think they would be some turns slower than crawers. Maybe around turn 45-50 in a perfect game where you play to the strenghts of the faction. For example you dont need the +10 industry because the colony ship of the sophons would 1 or 2 turn finish anyway. You dont need food growth because you would have smaller planets that have a very small amount of food needed to grow and use them to spam colony ships that would settle on your high population plantes that was loaded with science.



But for me cravers growth > anything. Because as long as you have more population you can get past any disadvantage and look at it this way if you have 100% more population than the other guy you have 100% more FIDS not only science.

Well i think growth of population matters more than the science bonus of the Sophon. Also they have to have a very low tax rate that slows down the expansion rate. But in theory you only need the high science the last turns when it counts the most, and they have very cheap colony ships. I think you would have to play a bit different and produce colony ships pretty much the whole game for sophons to have high enough growth. I think they would be some turns slower than crawers. Maybe around turn 45-50. Also if you are very lucky and get 3 adminstration heroes and 3 very powerfull systems i think maybe you can get under 40 turns with sophons too. Basically what you do then is have huge bonuses for a portion of your population (around 200 population on 4 systems) that will have some 200-300% research bonus. You will settle colony ships on the systems to get them extremly fast to max population. (3-4 turns if all other planets in the empire build colony ships.)

I don't think DMT playing on fast detracts from the signifigance of such a victory. I wouldn't be surprised if DMT Could go just over 100 turns for a sci victory on normal.

Earthstrike wrote:
Hey Eystein, very impressive victory. I'm not sure about your reasoning that your fast difficulty would necessarily scale into a turn 90 normal victory given that your cravers trait will diminish. turn 60 onwards you are 25% less fids on each planet, no?



I think the devs need to scale down the cravers affinity based on gamespeed. Theoretically it becomes really powerful on fast.

First of all: Thank you



While I do in general agree with you and the statment was ment as a simplification let me point out the following:

1. You only need growth early and if you look at my play from turn 40 to turn 45 i trippled my science from 30k to 90k. It does not matter much that I loose 25% less science at this point. It would maybe affect 2-3 turns.

2. Movement is not scaled so this gives an advantage on normal speed.

3. Locus exploring moon means at worst your looking at 0% bonus.



With that said you are correct it would not take exactly twice the time.



Now balancing Cravers, I think in single player they are far far too powerfull and in multiplayer at a slight advantage. The ai is too stupid to keep the growth of the craver in check as of now and cant keep up even on endless. In multiplayer vs someone who knows what they are doing the cravers are less powerfull as you are paying attention to the growth and they have very bad millitary to make this kind of growth so you can stop them dead in the tracks.



Solution? Either better AI vs cravers that punish someone growing like this or perhaps scale down cravers slightly. I think even 15% bonus would be fine.

Ok I did a syphon space victory game. This time on normal speed. Worked out pretty well turn 66 win. No -50% science anomaly this game only a halvement of movement from my colony ships

Same principle as craver only difference is no focus on tundra early since no need as I am playing syphons. I got 2 or 3 20% dust bonus for 40 turns so that was sweet. Also 3 10% for 20 or 40 turns (dont remember) science so also good. Because you fast expand a lot you get allmost all of the map worth of exploration events.



I think my theory is correct and because of the movement in normal you can allmost reach fast speed win times. It certanly is not the case that fast is half the speed of normal. The reason again is snowballing and the fact that movement stays the same during fast or normal game.



Turn 4: 19 science 17 dust 6 population 3 systems.

Turn 16: 289 science 176 dust 46 population 13 systems.

Turn 30: 2410 science 11 dust (Sophon is not as good as craver to earn dust so i hit a brick wall because of my fast expanding) 237 population 47 systems

Turn 40: 8978 science 2153 dust (border after 30 turn started to kick in) 535 population 69 systems.

Turn 51: 22678 science 4618 dust 1003 population 79 systems (99% towards exploration win) * why the big increase in population ? I bought refrigirators +30% food in just about all systems.

Turn 66: 81294 science 265 dust (using the sophon science bonus in the home stretch when it counts the most so tax rate was very low at this point.) 1246 population 79 systems.





science victory sophon normal speed.zip

I think sophon can also reach turn 45 science victory on fast no problem. I am not sure if I can get as fast wins on endless. I think with craver yes because of the massive dust and industry, but sophon would be too bogged down in war probably.

The more i think about it i feel HISSO could be the one to push a game under 35 turns. Quick early invasions can net you 60% FIDS. Not sure who is best craver or hisso or sophons. but i think hisso is more luck dependant and sophons also depending on having a good hero early and good early planets.

Playing MP in a fast mode in any game seems like the way to go regardless.

Oh Man we got astax playing now too? Civ 4 takeover!

I think this game has a natural fit for old civ4 players

I wish this game had a replay system, it would make it a lot easier to see these things. The science victories are pretty insane

I get too attached to games to play fast. I like long, drawn out games. Blitzing a game has very little gratification for me.



At first I was shocked with wtf could I be doing wrong.. hahaha, now I am just wondering how the hell to overclock my science like this. I focus pretty heavily on Sci and War, but I always have Econ and Sci victories disabled. Too easy to lose with how I like to draw a game out, then have Sophons rush Sci on Endless difficulty.

Also with the 53 turn sci win i had about 15 - 20% LESS systems!....

Screen shot and/or other proof?



It's not theoretically possibly to make enough science to win a science victory by turn 53.

It sure is... i think the autosaves have overwritten it since i played another game? Can I get the save from the game before that one still?



Before patch I could get sci victory before turn 70



My home system had 1k science @ turn 50 with the new corp hero upgrades.

double post

EvilTactician wrote:
Screen shot and/or other proof?



It's not theoretically possibly to make enough science to win a science victory by turn 53.

OK so just to prove this to you... I have attached a save with sci victory @ turn 60...



I messed this one up because I forgot about the new heros science upgrades for corp. I added one on the last few turns.



Additionally I forgot to research the virtual artifacts tech fast enough



In the 53 turn sci win I played pretty much epic. I had the weapons and armor up two further tears.... Also game events were active.... When I beat a sci win for turn 60 i will upload here.... Probably very soon ^^
sci-victory-turn-60.zip

You're going to have to breakdown your methodology of acquiring that much science that quickly. This way we can evaluate and come up with ideas on how to counter this - as it's definitely not intended game design and therefore would fall under the category of exploits.



The game simply isn't designed to be won with a science victory that early on.



At turn 53 as you claimed, you would still be expanding, balancing your population growth with production/science and your hero wouldn't be anywhere near high enough level to give high enough bonuses to acquire enough science to win a victory.



So if you found a way to do this, run us through it so that it can be prevented/fixed.

Lol dmt,



its windkitty, sup.



i played another game after our desync against tundra, and crushed him, i thought you should know i got revenge

EvilTactician wrote:
You're going to have to breakdown your methodology of acquiring that much science that quickly. This way we can evaluate and come up with ideas on how to counter this - as it's definitely not intended game design and therefore would fall under the category of exploits.



The game simply isn't designed to be won with a science victory that early on.



At turn 53 as you claimed, you would still be expanding, balancing your population growth with production/science and your hero wouldn't be anywhere near high enough level to give high enough bonuses to acquire enough science to win a victory.



So if you found a way to do this, run us through it so that it can be prevented/fixed.

There is no exploit that I am aware of.... I have been winning sci victories before turn 70 since like beta. It was quicker before addon 1..... then it was about 10 turns slower on average after addon 1. Now with addon 2 it seems to be about 15 turns faster than even before add on 1.



I have not met anyone who can expand as fast as myself and I also have all the sci traits on my civ... I dont even change my planets to global science tech parks either and I have never used a system governor in any game for any system, no matter how many systems I have... Can manually manage 40 systems in 135 seconds last turn timer.... Master of queues



I will post a few more save games, maybe that will help.



Certainly the new game events & hero traits make science a cakewalk even though the events are disabled in the save above

kaydiechii wrote:
Lol dmt,



its windkitty, sup.



i played another game after our desync against tundra, and crushed him, i thought you should know i got revenge

Rofl Nice one Windkitty

EvilTactician wrote:
You're going to have to breakdown your methodology of acquiring that much science that quickly. This way we can evaluate and come up with ideas on how to counter this - as it's definitely not intended game design and therefore would fall under the category of exploits.



The game simply isn't designed to be won with a science victory that early on.



At turn 53 as you claimed, you would still be expanding, balancing your population growth with production/science and your hero wouldn't be anywhere near high enough level to give high enough bonuses to acquire enough science to win a victory.



So if you found a way to do this, run us through it so that it can be prevented/fixed.

Also I dont balance anything.... Build food & production on most.... I only build science on artics and barrens



I find lots of players afraid of barrens & artics, I kinda love them! I dont even have cloning to justify me liking them



The only thing I find that I have to manage is when I am about to spam colonise the planets in my systems such as gas giants lava etc... The happiness goes down, to preempt this I simply build all happiness building within about 4 turns otherwise will be taxing at 50 / 60%

I thought science would be slower with the trade reduction to science.



I just achieved a record science win... turn 53 @ 32K science per turn.



Nice

In fact I challenge the devs to a mp game....



Come on, bring it on!!!!



Dont worry, I will peacefully kick your asses (Unless Ryousi finds his way into the game)

+ this is FAST mode.... does that make a difference? ^^

DMT wrote:
+ this is FAST mode.... does that make a difference? ^^

Yes it does. I would never consider playing on fast mode in any 4x game as I always felt it's meant for people without long-term vision or patience. I don't feel it's how games like this are meant to be played. In a game like Birth of the Federation it worked as it had completely pre-set ships and it was more about the tactical combat, but it's not the game in Endless Space.



Usually the balance is wildly off due to the faster construction and research times. Since games like this start slow and get exponentially faster, 'FAST' mode just doesn't work all that well. E.g. suppose you half all the construction times and researches. The actual game length is not halved, but rather increased by a much larger factor.

yes it does ^^



All the cost (technology, ship and improvement) are divided per two, and your population growths faster =)



Moreover, the bonuses from the exploration event are not affected by the game speed, only their duration so that's maybe why you seem to have a crazy science since the new add on.

That explains that then

Crazy Science? I haven't even noticed.

Considering tech trading is still allowed science becomes irrelevant (unless you have Science Victory on) very quickly.

LOL DMT, playing on fast mode again, are we? No wonder you got it so fast. If you were playing normal, that would have been well past turn 100.

EvilTactician wrote:
Yes it does. I would never consider playing on fast mode in any 4x game as I always felt it's meant for people without long-term vision or patience. I don't feel it's how games like this are meant to be played. In a game like Birth of the Federation it worked as it had completely pre-set ships and it was more about the tactical combat, but it's not the game in Endless Space.



Usually the balance is wildly off due to the faster construction and research times. Since games like this start slow and get exponentially faster, 'FAST' mode just doesn't work all that well. E.g. suppose you half all the construction times and researches. The actual game length is not halved, but rather increased by a much larger factor.

How do you people have the time to play or patience to play on anything other than fast? No offence to Endless space or anything but if the game lasts longer than 100 turns I'm asleep and gone. I suppose its because I like to win fast and get something else done as well but I seriously can't understand how people can play 10+ hours on one game. The best bits at the start with the exploring and fighting to get a good start over the other factions.

Anyway, I think this is a little off topic so I shall return to the topic in hand. I can see how its possible to get a science victory that fast if you're so inclined to head straight for one, I myself have had a victory of the science kind in 62 turns. This 53 turn victory however would be quite a hard record to beat. I shall have to try and see if I can manage to outdo this one. When I get the time that is.