Chipson wrote:
Are you going to give special traits to hero characters? It would be fun if Creed got TACTICAL GENIUS trait, hurr.

Leitoh wrote:
I guess I'll go ahead and mention this. This mod is really only meant to be a reskin mod with no gameplay changes. Upon full release of the mod, meaning all the reskinned factions are in, anybody who wishes to go further such as making any gameplay changes and upload it to the net are free to do so. Of course there will be the manditory crediting of devs, non-commerical use, etc.

It's only a reskin mod, no gameplay alterations.



Once it's done, provided Leitoh doesn't mind too much, I will play around with techs, planets and heroes, yes.



For heroes, my own plan is a bit more broad than working with individuals, I was planning on simply giving one extra skill based on race (Rosarius for Imperium, Waaagh! for Orks, Fleet of Foot for Eldar, etc).

I also just realized we absolutely, 100% MUST have Kaptin Bluddflag of the Freebooters for the Orks. You'll know why when you see him.

Np, there were a few hero slots that I missed.

Leitoh wrote:
Good points Nyx, but I'm probably going to have space marines as a faction just because they are the face of 40k. I was going to base the faction off Ultramar/Ultramarines.

Well your project your rules - may I atleast suggest a pre and post heresy Imperium factions?

The pre faction heavily deployed marines (and usually had them in comand positions) and had the actual manpower to do so, the Ultramarines of the m.41 are a thousand strong (as per Codex Astartes) with maybe an additional two thousand servitors & equerries; truly a powerful force but not really a galactic power on par the Tau Empire or even some other chapters.

(besides the marines of that era had both the titan legions and the imperial army as support and for garrison duty, spreading a thousand marines on a job that took millions to do might be a little unrealistic - not to mention that having a single Battle Barge makes it precious, having ten fleets with a dozen BB's each makes them kinda "cheap".)



Also consider the marine fleet composition, Ultramarines are sure to follow Guilliman's codex and as such won't field a space combat heavy fleet; some other more "liberal" chapters (even more so if space based) such as the Imperial Fists may prove a different story (having Phalanx and atleast several heavy Battle Barges as well as few dozen Strike Cruisers), or perhaps the Space Wolves who arguably still field the numbers and fleets of their pre heresy brothers..

(not to mention the Black Templars who supposedly count in well over ten thousand marines AND are fleet based)

But hey I just stumbled on your project and hoped I might provide some imput, your decision if its valid and/or appropriate for your project.

Romeo wrote:
Just, visually, Chaos pretty much look like the Imperium with more spikes.

With respect while Chaos does field some older Imperial based ships they also have various daemonships unique to them, incorporating not only warp elements but also taking from xeno & forbidden tech.

Even their profile is different as (most) Chaos vessels lack the characteristic armoured prow and are much sleeker (almost always longer but thiner) in comparison to imps.

(also the bulk of their ships come from the Dark Mechanicus and while their "light" counterparts are freaky, these "guys" are a another story altogether and their designs prove it.)

Romeo wrote:
I also just realized we absolutely, 100% MUST have Kaptin Bluddflag of the Freebooters for the Orks. You'll know why when you see him.

“I like yer hat by the way . . .”

Nyx wrote:
With respect while Chaos does field some older Imperial based ships they also have various daemonships unique to them, incorporating not only warp elements but also taking from xeno & forbidden tech.

Even their profile is different as (most) Chaos vessels lack the characteristic armoured prow and are much sleeker (almost always longer but thiner) in comparison to imps.

(also the bulk of their ships come from the Dark Mechanicus and while their "light" counterparts are freaky, these "guys" are a another story altogether and their designs prove it.)

Oh believe me, I know all about the Dark Mechanicus (The mod I've been working on for months in Dawn of War is all about them).



As for the ships, I will be the first to admit, I'm relatively new to that side of W40K, I just know that in terms of their units and vehicles, they're almost all Space Marine + Blood/Spikes/Bloodspikes.

“I like yer hat by the way . . .” [/QUOTE]

He is so many kinds of awesome. lol

i think the orks would be more along the lines of

dreadnaught - battleship they dont have a super battleship

battleship - battlekroozers

cruiser - kill kroozer or terror ship

destroyer - onslaught Attack Ship

corvette - savage Gunship

transport - space hulk

hope it helped a bit

Romeo wrote:
Oh believe me, I know all about the Dark Mechanicus (The mod I've been working on for months in Dawn of War is all about them).



As for the ships, I will be the first to admit, I'm relatively new to that side of W40K, I just know that in terms of their units and vehicles, they're almost all Space Marine + Blood/Spikes/Bloodspikes.

Well in that case as they say: "Iron Protects"





DoW while an amazing game was not really fluff friendly and honestly it dealt with a marine chapter VS a chaos marine band.

And those two groups at one time used the same ordinance (and still continue to do so in many cases), but the point being that those two aspects of chaos and imps are probably the most simillar..



Battlefleets are little more diverse, they still have features they share but some (especially new) chaos vessels are without comparison to anything the Imperium can field. (chances that the chaos ships are "built/grown/grafted" in the warp itself explains that)

And as for ships I suggest you do some more research on the matter then.



http://www.google.com/search?q=battlefleet+gothic+chaos&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GDfLUKzGLbTN4QSdkoHQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=895

http://www.google.com/search?q=battlefleet+gothic+chaos&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GDfLUKzGLbTN4QSdkoHQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=895#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=battlefleet+gothic+imperium&oq=battlefleet+gothic+imperium&gs_l=img.3...9382.10764.0.10998.8.4.0.4.4.0.213.504.0j2j1.3.0...0.0...1c.1.Z-rcL02RAzw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.bGE&fp=1e975448e76b530a&bpcl=39967673&biw=1280&bih=895



OI! Lissen ta me wen I’z talkin’ to ya! We’z gonna go on ‘dere ship, we’z gonna smash it up an’ kill anyfing dat gets in our way, an’ den we’z gonna get back on da boat an’ go home. Dat’ll show ‘em. Do you lot of ‘umie runts unnastand dat? Good. Now, wiv me: WAAAGH!

Nyx wrote:
Well in that case as they say: "Iron Protects"





DoW while an amazing game was not really fluff friendly and honestly it dealt with a marine chapter VS a chaos marine band.

And those two groups at one time used the same ordinance (and still continue to do so in many cases), but the point being that those two aspects of chaos and imps are probably the most simillar..



Battlefleets are little more diverse, they still have features they share but some (especially new) chaos vessels are without comparison to anything the Imperium can field. (chances that the chaos ships are "built/grown/grafted" in the warp itself explains that)

And as for ships I suggest you do some more research on the matter then.



http://www.google.com/search?q=battlefleet+gothic+chaos&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GDfLUKzGLbTN4QSdkoHQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=895

http://www.google.com/search?q=battlefleet+gothic+chaos&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GDfLUKzGLbTN4QSdkoHQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=895#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=battlefleet+gothic+imperium&oq=battlefleet+gothic+imperium&gs_l=img.3...9382.10764.0.10998.8.4.0.4.4.0.213.504.0j2j1.3.0...0.0...1c.1.Z-rcL02RAzw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.bGE&fp=1e975448e76b530a&bpcl=39967673&biw=1280&bih=895



OI! Lissen ta me wen I’z talkin’ to ya! We’z gonna go on ‘dere ship, we’z gonna smash it up an’ kill anyfing dat gets in our way, an’ den we’z gonna get back on da boat an’ go home. Dat’ll show ‘em. Do you lot of ‘umie runts unnastand dat? Good. Now, wiv me: WAAAGH!

No, DoW ain't fluff-friendly at all, but I actually found they helped get around some of the "copypasta" issue of Chaos by simply ignoring many of the copycat units (Chaos Dreadnaughts, Chaos Terminators, Chaos Havocs, Chaos Land Raiders, and so on). I absolutely LOVE Chaos in the game, but apart from the daemons, the Defiler-series and the one special squad of each deity (Berzerkers, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, Plague Marines), they are almost identical to Space Marines, which is a shame, because it makes them less unique (Same goes for the Adeptus Soriatas, Adeptus Mechanicus and Harlequins).

I suppose the chaos troops unique to each of the gods does help elevate that.



If you were going for your own unique version of 40K you could translate that into their ships and modules (Although sonic weapons would be worthless, unless their are apart of a system invasion technology like some kind of expanded chaos armory for the troops (That is if you go with the ES method of each ship being able to invade or at least help invade by housing troops)).

Igncom1 wrote:
I suppose the chaos troops unique to each of the gods does help elevate that.



If you were going for your own unique version of 40K you could translate that into their ships and modules (Although sonic weapons would be worthless, unless their are apart of a system invasion technology like some kind of expanded chaos armory for the troops (That is if you go with the ES method of each ship being able to invade or at least help invade by housing troops)).

For Chaos, I would personally like to implement a late-game Energy Module that was unique to each Chaos god:



Khornate Module: Large bonus to Kinetic damage.



Tzeench Module: Bonus to Beam damage.



Slaaneshi Module: Small bonus to Missile damage.



Nurgle Module: Absorbs 15% of "Weapon type" per Weapon Module.



Each of these would weigh 800 Mass but give 600 Mass back, meaning they could only be fielded on Dreadnaughts. If the player doesn't have the Empire bonuses to storage capacity, they would cost 200. If they have all of them, they would actually provide a bonus of 100 Mass. Each one would be tied in with the final corresponding weapon tech (Kinetic/Khorne, Beam/Tzeench, Missile/Snaanesh, Armour/Nurgle), while the defensive bonuses would be moved elsewhere.

Thanks for the suggestion ghazz, I've updated the ship list.



Nyx: Valid points. However, I guess I'm just coming at it from a different direction. This mod really isn't suppose to be an exact replication of 40k fluff. The galaxy isn't going to be the same, the borders aren't the same, etc. Think of it as playing in an alternate universe.

Leitoh wrote:
This mod really isn't suppose to be an exact replication of 40k fluff. The galaxy isn't going to be the same, the borders aren't the same, etc. Think of it as playing in an alternate universe.

Hey your call, just bear in mind the more you chip on the established setting - greater the chances you end up with a more of an starcraft or starship troopers mod then a wh one.



@Romeo Last bit of input, not sure how feasible it is at this stage but consider faction specific "personalised" tech trees. Initially it could be done with a localization "tweak" where in you could rename "Weaponry" tech branch into say "Mark of Khorne" (for chaos only obviously) and so forth.



In that manner certain faction flavour could be established with even renamed vanilla techs (and loc'ed improvements maybe) with only localisation tweaking.

(messy I know - but not a bad patchjob until the inevitable full revamp to follow in a later version)



And perhaps this would suit the modules/"shrines" more;

Khornate Module: Large bonus to Invasion and perhaps flat +% for min/max damage but -% for absorption.

Tzeenchian Module: A significant bonus to MAX damage but perhaps a malus for MIN to illustrate for the fickle nature of change. Also a sensor boost.

Slaaneshi Module: Increased cost and HP malus to compesate for higher speed and defence

Nurglite Module: HPHPHP (not deflection but plain health) but a severe malus to speed.(also you do understand that in 40k there are no hyperlanes/wormholes/pathnodes and such?)

And don't forget the Undivided Module which should be the only one not to have a drawback, power always comes with a cost in wh and dealing with chaos should illustrate that right?



Also there are sonic weapons in BFG, only they are used by Eldars. (sonic lances, vibrocannons and sonic torpedos & charges)



Now best o'luck and hopefully this mod will fair better then the many previous BFG mods that pop up for any and all newer space games.

Nyx wrote:
Hey your call, just bear in mind the more you chip on the established setting - greater the chances you end up with a more of an starcraft or starship troopers mod then a wh one.



@Romeo Last bit of input, not sure how feasible it is at this stage but consider faction specific "personalised" tech trees. Initially it could be done with a localization "tweak" where in you could rename "Weaponry" tech branch into say "Mark of Khorne" (for chaos only obviously) and so forth.



In that manner certain faction flavour could be established with even renamed vanilla techs (and loc'ed improvements maybe) with only localisation tweaking.

(messy I know - but not a bad patchjob until the inevitable full revamp to follow in a later version)



And perhaps this would suit the modules/"shrines" more;

Khornate Module: Large bonus to Invasion and perhaps flat +% for min/max damage but -% for absorption.

Tzeenchian Module: A significant bonus to MAX damage but perhaps a malus for MIN to illustrate for the fickle nature of change. Also a sensor boost.

Slaaneshi Module: Increased cost and HP malus to compesate for higher speed and defence

Nurglite Module: HPHPHP (not deflection but plain health) but a severe malus to speed.(also you do understand that in 40k there are no hyperlanes/wormholes/pathnodes and such?)

And don't forget the Undivided Module which should be the only one not to have a drawback, power always comes with a cost in wh and dealing with chaos should illustrate that right?



Also there are sonic weapons in BFG, only they are used by Eldars. (sonic lances, vibrocannons and sonic torpedos & charges)



Now best o'luck and hopefully this mod will fair better then the many previous BFG mods that pop up for any and all newer space games.

One will have to accept that it will be impossible to completely do a perfect recreation of the W40K universe in Endless Space. Hell, right off the bat, Sol could only have six planets, the layout/positioning/size of the galaxy would be randomized, Warp-Space tech would need to be researched despite all factions knowing how it works, etc...



I'm still just playing around, but the Weapons tree will need to be unique for absolutely everyone (As the name's don't match up, plus I want the energy mods for Chaos, and the unique racial weapons such as Zzap Kannons, Ion Cannons, Railguns and so on.



I had actually considered another way still of doing the energy mods, but with what I have pictured in my head, I'd like to make Chaos awesome in power late-game, but especially limited in numbers. So far, I think splitting them in to what each God likes (Khorne = Up close and personal, Tzeench = Finicky energy weapons, Slaanesh = Loud, raucous weapons and Nurgle = Keeping his own guys alive).



I had thought about doing a Chaos Undivided module, but it REALLY clutters up the weapons tree. It becomes a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation. Things in the weapon's tree are already... Well, chaotic, for lack of a better term.



I do like the Sonic weapons in Warhammer 40K (Hell, next to Rubric Marines, I think Noise Marines are my next favourite infantry), but I feel like acoustic weapons in a place without atmosphere (Read: Space) don't make too much sense. =P

Romeo wrote:
One will have to accept that it will be impossible to completely do a perfect recreation of the W40K universe in Endless Space.

Ofcourse not, many official campaigns are set in "random" sectors which if liked become canon afterwards.

My point is that in all of them a space marine is a very rare comodoty, and a faction based solely on sm's (Ultras especialy) would depend on creating numbers of them that are far more suited to say starcraft then wh..

But again I had my DoW project and this is yours - so whatever works for you, I do hope you will make something great.

Romeo wrote:
Warp-Space tech would need to be researched despite all factions knowing how it works, etc...

Why not simply give basic engines warp speed and remove their "normal one", would that work?

Arguably only ones who use a node type of drive are either Tau or stretching the concept to Eldar Webways. (advanced tech could possibly enable other factions to use the "webway" and travel super fast between conected systems)

Romeo wrote:
I had actually considered another way still of doing the energy mods, but with what I have pictured in my head, I'd like to make Chaos awesome in power late-game, but especially limited in numbers. So far, I think splitting them in to what each God likes (Khorne = Up close and personal, Tzeench = Finicky energy weapons, Slaanesh = Loud, raucous weapons and Nurgle = Keeping his own guys alive).

I had thought about doing a Chaos Undivided module, but it REALLY clutters up the weapons tree. It becomes a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation. Things in the weapon's tree are already... Well, chaotic, for lack of a better term.

Sure that makes sense but I belive you're thinking too small, say Khorne is about aggresion;

The reason his followers are mostly berzerkers is thats the easiest means to "honour" Khorne. (consider Blood Pact on the other hand who while being disciples of Khorne are highly organised and disciplined - even retreating or ambushing)

Also consider this;

Horrors throw warpic plasma bolts, rubic marines use warp infused bolter shells and hell screamers often actually act like missles..

You get what I'm saying here? Why should Tzeentch (or any of them) be locked into a single weapon type when it makes more sense (both in gameplay and otherwise) that they provide a scalable characteristic bonus which is a "cherry on top" of a specialised ship. (or even a fleet)

Romeo wrote:
I do like the Sonic weapons in Warhammer 40K (Hell, next to Rubric Marines, I think Noise Marines are my next favourite infantry), but I feel like acoustic weapons in a place without atmosphere (Read: Space) don't make too much sense. =P

Yeah If you consider soundwaves going thru space then yes, you should understand that those specific Eldar weapons create waves inside their struck objects - literaly ripping them apart.. (ignoring conventional defences like void shields)

Cool huh?

I guess I'll go ahead and mention this. This mod is really only meant to be a reskin mod with no gameplay changes. Upon full release of the mod, meaning all the reskinned factions are in, anybody who wishes to go further such as making any gameplay changes and upload it to the net are free to do so. Of course there will be the manditory crediting of devs, non-commerical use, etc.

Are you going to give special traits to hero characters? It would be fun if Creed got TACTICAL GENIUS trait, hurr.

Nyx wrote:
Some excellent points there but consider that:



I'm really not sure how can anyone find chaos boring..

Even if you're finding them as worthy of being nuke purged like I do they are still (arguably) the iconic (pardon the pun) faction of WH.

And lets not forget they come in different "flavours" from rotten nurgleth raiders to dark mechanicum or perhaps the blood pack or even a black legion expedition..

You must agree that they have possibilities..



Orks don't really use imp tech - they just scav it and make something orky from it, but I honestly think staffing a retribution class would be a little more challenging then rigging a 'rus. (then again orks were known to do stranger things)



Now then about GK's..

Consider them being part of Ordo Malleus, and that ordo being a part of the Inquisition.

The GK chapter should field around 1k marines at most; Malleus could field those 1k and Malacor knows how many more stormtroopers, requisitioned pdf or guardsmen regiments and more..

The Inquisition as a whole could potentially field everything the Imperium has.. and more..



Now doesn't the Inquisition or atleast the Ordo Xenos for that matter (not too many demons in BFG and deathwatch could match the GK's in numbers) make more sense for a imperial sub faction?

(and what about the lovable Adeptus Mechanicus and their own skittarii/battleships/forgeworlds for that matter; one could see them colonizing, researching or even collaborating with dirty dirty xenos)

Make no mistakes, in terms of mechanics, I'm looking forward to doing Chaos more than any other faction, personally (As I can imagine doing a unique Energy module catered to each of the four gods, Khrone-Kinetic, Tzeench-Beam, Slaanesh-Missile and Nurgle-Defense). Just, visually, Chaos pretty much look like the Imperium with more spikes.

davea wrote:
It sounds like you have made great progress. I am not sure the dev team will be adding those particular features soon. So, you may want to consider doing a release with the existing particle placements, in order for people to see your work.

While I'm not in charge of the mod, I would imagine we're still quite a ways off of even finishing the first two races, so I don't think we need to worry about holding out a little while for those features. =P

My bad, didn't read opening post carefully.

For heroes, my own plan is a bit more broad than working with individuals, I was planning on simply giving one extra skill based on race (Rosarius for Imperium, Waaagh! for Orks, Fleet of Foot for Eldar, etc).

Still better than nothing, looking forward for the gameplay changes, thought.

Have you thought about fraction personalization? It would be fun if there were some strict lemitations, e.g. Imperium can't have diplomatic relationship with xenos, and stuff like that. I'll check game files later, and see if it is possible.

Chipson wrote:
My bad, didn't read opening post carefully.

Still better than nothing, looking forward for the gameplay changes, thought.

Have you thought about fraction personalization? It would be fun if there were some strict lemitations, e.g. Imperium can't have diplomatic relationship with xenos, and stuff like that. I'll check game files later, and see if it is possible.

Aye, not sure if it's possible either (And that's what's killing me, not every race has mercenaries available, which makes things like Tau heroes hard).



In the interim, I'm still playing with my Chaos tech tree. It has spiralled out of control alarmingly quick. lol

I pledge my approval to this mod.