Do you know if there is an absolute limit in the number of star-systems that the normal game-program can support?



What I mean is if we add systems in the Editor, can we crash the game because we exceed some undocumented, absolute limit?



I prefer to play in galaxies which have a lot of stars and a lot of players from different factions. In Master of Orion 1, the maximum was around 95 systems. In Master of Orion 2, it fell to around 75 systems (but with more planets). In Master of Orion 3, it rose to a ceiling of 256 stars : that was more like it. In the same genre, there are other games which exceed 1000.



In my current game, with a huge/high-density setting (the biggest size the game normally offers), the Editor says that there are 106 star-systems, and the map-size parameters are X = 103.8 and Z = 102.2.



I wonder how many stars can be added, the maximum allowable that will be tolerated by the game-program, and also, what are the maximum sizes X and Z may have : I suppose that the more we can stretch the X and Z size-parameters, the more star-systems can be added.



I will test it by trial and error, but perhaps the excellent Editor's creator or experienced map-editors already have tested the absolute limit of galaxy sizes : maximum number of stars, and maximum numbers for X and Z.

What I mean is if we add systems in the Editor, can we crash the game because we exceed some undocumented, absolute limit?

Far as I know there isn't really a technical limit (but I assume ~2.1 billion since it's probably a 32bit integer) in the engine, however there is a practical limit for playing as the more systems the game has to track the more resources it'll use and the longer your turns will take as the game progesses. I don't recommend more then a couple hundred at this point, my turns take forever mid\late game once I have more then ~150+ systems; personally I've never tried fully playing more then a 300 system map to conclusion (supremacy). This issue is a little more dependent on number of empires and number of ships each empire has then it is on number of systems but it still adds overhead even if those other factors add far more. Also obviously if you go more then 255 you need to add your own star names to the generators list, course you don't have to bother with that if you are adding them via direct editing.



I've loaded (ingame) someone else's 1500 system map once, it took a long time and that was early game, but it worked, your mileage may vary. Similarly the most I've loaded in the editor was about that same number 1500...it adds some lag to the map-mover screen and elsewhere but it still functions ok.



As for X Z I've never tried more then 250x250 I think, I assume you can go pretty high (they are decs) just remember to keep the bounds (for systems) about ~20 or so less then max bounds, or it might fk'up your perspective view.



Hope that helps.

KnightHawk wrote:
[...Valuableinformationinthepost:] Hope that helps.

Yes, thank you very much for your technical reply : it does help a lot! You have brilliantly and exhaustively answered every aspect of my line of query.



Also, thank you very much for the Editor : it is very useful for basic changes, even if one does not try to experiment with advanced, abnormal astronomical situations. To give you an example :



In my current game, I setup a huge/high-density, disk-shaped galaxy with only one constellation (no wormholes) and only 6 empires (including mine) : 106 star-systems. I was shocked to notice that the generator placed one of my 5 rivals' homeworlds very near mine : there was only one system between us! I had assumed that the generator included a simple, elementary equation to avoid such an unfortunate situation : an equation taking into account the number of star-systems and the number of homeworld-systems, in order to determine an equal distribution of their starting locations. I loaded in the Editor an early-game autosave, and simply removed a few warp-lines : the enemy homeworld remained close to mine (I did not see the need to move it), but its warp-line access to my homeworld was now very remote. Just being able to do that with the Editor is precious : unless one enjoys early-game tensions, being too close to a rival, when there is a lot of space available, is detrimental to start a game with a fair playing-field (in terms of roughly equivalent expansion opportunities for all players). In conclusion, the Editor is very useful if one employs it to examine the astro-strategic and astrophysical situation at the very start of a new game, by loading a "Turn 0" save : such an examination can avoid investing significant time into a game before realizing that the generator dealt you a bad hand to start with.



Note 1. When I removed the warp-lines that made my homeworld accessible to a too-close rival's homeworld, I inadvertently deleted a line where an enemy scout was traveling, towards my capital. After loading the modified save, I noticed the scout one turn later, when it came within the detection range of my homeworld : it was traveling in empty space, not on a warp-line, but along the path of the deleted line. I was glad that this abnormal situation had not crashed my modded save when I loaded it.



In what concerns my original query concerning the number of stars and the galaxy size, you have given me all the answers I needed to try to experiment, but I doubt that I will actually play a long game in a galaxy exceeding 255 systems.



Note 2. Why does the Editor indicate, at "#Empires", a number exceeding the game-setup's number by +1? In my current game, I am absolutely certain that there are 6 players, but the Editor indicates "#Empires: 7". I remember that it had been the same +1-empire situation in my previous game, when examined in the Editor.

Also, thank you very much for the Editor

Your welcome! Primarily I use the editor like you do... at the very start of the game right after generation just to tweak some things I may not like. Glad you find it useful.

Example of some other weird stuff that can be done - /#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/9731-off-the-beaten-path-custom-map-this-is-the-80-s

(note I think the file in that post might need to be updated to the latest release (load and save ingame) before attempting to edit.)

I was glad that this abnormal situation had not crashed my modded save when I loaded it.

Yeah the editor doesn't check when removing a warp\worm if a ship's travel path currently contains a to\from travel path on a given warp path, in testing I noticed what you did, that it will take it's previously calculated\known path regardless until it hits it's destination and then recalculate and adjust accordingly so it's never been a problem. It does check this to some degree when deleting a system though as systems get re-numbered and all the stored travel path points have to be updated to be translated to the new system numbers which happens automagically for you during the delete process.



About the #Empires:

It's because the player index numbers in the engine and maps are zero based.

Ie human player (or the Host player in multiplayer) is always player 0, Pirates are always Player 1, players 2-9 are the other possible seven empires. A 6 empire map even if pirates are off will generate player's 0-6 (ie 7 players), you, the disabled pirates, and five others, the pirates don't show up as an "empire" per say inside the game but they function as one (with limitations) internally.

OK, thanks, I understand : the +1 "empire" designates the Pirates, "even if the pirates are off" -- which was my game-setup choice.



I just discovered the "alternativeGalaxyGenerator" mod. I started a game with 256 stars, not seeing the interest in generating the thousands of systems that mod pretends to support.



I tried to load the Turn-0 save in your Editor, but it did not work : there were a few error-lines in the debug section.



Question : Is the "alternativeGalaxyGenerator" mod compatible with your Editor?



Update. I have ceased to use the aGG mod, for 2 reasons : (1) In the two 256-star games I generated, there was a rival empire which started too close to me, and I could not use your Editor to correct that odd situation (odd, because this closeness in starting locations should not happen in a 256-star galaxy, even with 8 players) ; (2) I have realized that I did not wish to play long games of ES, so 106 to 128 systems are enough for me, and your Editor can then easily be used to add a dozen or two stars. I will change my mind about using the aGG mod if it becomes compatible with your Editor.

Is the "alternativeGalaxyGenerator" mod compatible with your Editor?

It has been in the past - but there was some issue awhile back where it was adding a field to the file that the normal game doesn't add if that is still the case then you'll need to use the workaround mentioned elsewhere in this thread. (I haven't followed agg in while so I have no idea if it was ever changed or really why it was generated in the first place)



ref: /#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16346-tool-to-move-your-star-systems-around-esmapeditor (post 120)

I would be curious if the error message you get is still about the ArmNumber or ArmNumberMultiplier fields.

I also experienced problems with the Uplift mod, which includes a variant of the aGG since its recent version 2.1 : trying to load a Turn 0 save in your Editor did not work.



I read post 120 and will try its shortcut workaround.



Update (4 hours later) :



1. Started a game with the aGG mod, with the following parameters : 2 constellations (arms), Enormous (256 star-systems), Constellation multiplier = 1.



Saved on Turn 0, then loaded in your Editor, which had this error message :



"Failed to process the element [GameInfo]

Failed to process the element [Galaxy]

Failed to process the element [GenerationSettings]

Failed to read the elements held within the element [GenerationSettings.]

The unexpected elemnent [ArmNumber] remains un processed"



Your message recommended to restart with the -LoadmodeRelaxed command. I created a shortcut and edit it accordingly.



SUCCESS! Your Editor accepted the aGG 256-star galaxy in its "relaxed mode".



2. Started a new game with the Uplift mod, which now uses a variant of the aGG : 2 constellations (arms), ''Gigantic'' (= 64 x 2 = 128 stars), Constellation multiplier = 1.



Saved on Turn 0, then loaded in your Editor, without the added command line : Failure, branded by the exact same error-message as above.



Then, if loaded from the modified shortcut : SUCCESS!



Your Editor identified the mod as : #0f36ff#Uplift#REVERT#



That is very good news for me : with your workaround command-line, I can now use and edit those two mods ... but I will not play games with more than 128 stars.

Glad you had success.

Just remember once you've loaded it with -LoadmodeRelaxed and saved it you don't need to load the saved version in that mode anymore (unless it's a new map you're editing), and probably shouldn't as non-relaxed (default) mode is there for your own protection as it prevents the editor from editing a file with content it doesn't understand.

Your Editor identified the mod as : #0f36ff#Uplift#REVERT#

Yeah that's the raw text of the name, inside the game that first set of numbers is parsed as a RGB colorcode for the text; I suppose I could\should improve the parsing of that; you'll see similar artifacts in the anomaly and such mouse-over descriptions say if for instance someone color coded an anomaly name.

KnightHawk wrote:




[...] non-relaxed (default) mode is there for your own protection as it prevents the editor from editing a file with content it doesn't understand.

(Thanks for the warning : I might have started to regularly use the edited shortcut instead of the default-mode's executable.)



I do not understand what you mean by "editing a file". Which type of file : a file in the original (non-modded) ES installation directory, or a file in the mod's installation folder, or "merely" a file in the save-game that is opened in the relaxed-mode Editor? If the danger merely relates to the latter, it is not a tragedy if it happens : it is only a save-game file.

The latter... "editing" = loaded in ESMapEditer, I just meant after you save in the editor those ArmNumber entries are gone so no need to be in relaxed mode anymore...unless you later generate another brand new map\game file with agg then you gotta rinse and repeat. Might have been less confusing if just said nothing

KnightHawk wrote:




[...] I just meant after you save in the editor those ArmNumber entries are gone so no need to be in relaxed mode anymore...unless you later generate another brand new map\game file with agg

Confirmed. I edited an Uplift Turn-0 save with the relaxed mode, and then, when I tried to edit that game's autosave with the normal mode, it was loaded with no problem whatsoever.

Might have been less confusing if just said nothing

I disagree : what you said led me to think about the situation and to ask a question -- which is not a waste of time. I am really an ignorant child when it comes to programming, so what is obvious to you isn't to me ... so it is good that I am provoked to ponder and ask questions -- no sterile confusion there.



I am very impressed by the usefulness of your Editor. When I was playing at Master of Orion 2, mostly from 1996 until 2002, I was frustrated that games could be rotten, from the beginning, because of a bad starting location. MoO 1 had more stars (almost 100), but no planets in their systems. MoO 2 added pretty planets orbiting the stars, but it reduced the number of stars to something around 70, and too many of those planets were not easily colonizable, so if you set the maximum number of players in that 70-star "galaxy" and was dealt a bad starting position, you were screwed ... and it could take you a few turns of exploration to realize that. I then discovered an editor for MoO 2 called "Corion 2" which had about the same functions as your own Editor. That Corion 2 editor made MoO 2 much less frustrating to play. Of course, it is best not to abuse those editors to obtain unfair advantages. I employ your Editor just as I used the Corion 2 editor : simply to examine the starting location and to modify those elements which represent an unbalanced initial hand of cards -- like if you were playing Hearts and were dealt the Queen of Spades with no other spades to protect her (in the purist mode where you cannot pass cards to other players before the game is effectively launched).



In conclusion, I am very impressed and happy with your Editor, but I have not yet explored all of its features. For example, I have not tried to edit Heroes. I one game, I was dealt 3 heroes who were all pilots or fleet commanders : none had any ability to enhance FIDS. Next time that happens, I shall use your Editor.



Update (8 hours later). I started to try the Imperium Aeterna mod. Its turn-0 save could be opened without problem in the normal mode.



Update 2 (next day, the 24th). I started to try the Fair Fight mod. Its turn-0 save could be opened without problem in normal mode. #ffa700#Fair Fight#REVERT#

Just FYI - Before anyone asks, yes I will be updating the tool for 1.0.8x classic and 1.1.x Disharmony expansion.



It'll be a couple days, probably this weekend as I've not had a ton of time in recent weeks and due to lots of churn during beta I had decided to wait till closer till final release to focus back on making all the needed changes and testing, apologies, it will come though.

Just FYI - Before anyone asks, yes I will be updating the tool for 1.0.8x classic and 1.1.x Disharmony expansion.



It'll be a couple days, probably this weekend as I've not had a ton of time in recent weeks and due to lots of churn during beta I had decided to wait till closer till final release to focus back on making all the needed changes and testing, apologies, it will come though.

Thanks for the update. I was about to ask :-)

Just an update - It's not gonna be this weekend. My beautiful 27" monitor just died on me last night while playing, waaaaa (it's only 2.2 years old..grrr). Can't do sh1t with this old 17" backup I'm using, well I actually I tried but it's pretty frustrating. New one ordered already and should be here by Tuesday in the AM or sooner.

Waiting in anticipation and wondering what flavour of 80's hits will be helping you through.



I've got an ES Vanilla game on the go with a few different saves covering the period pre and post Disharmony. If it's any use to you I can attach the different version and send for you to pick over. Just give me a shout.



All the best with your new 27" when it arrives. I'm still using my 17" laptop to run my games. Does alright, though having a 2nd monitor for other programmes is sometimes needed.

indigav wrote:


All the best with your new 27" when it arrives. I'm still using my 17" laptop to run my games. Does alright, though having a 2nd monitor for other programmes is sometimes needed.

Oh I can play on 17", but development is too frustrating to me without more screen real estate; it's weird how once you go big going small again is so annoying. The poison ivy I got hit with when I was mucking around in the yard on Thursday isn't helping either, when it rains it pours.

Is your editor's source hosted on Github or somewhere similar?

KnightHawk wrote:
Just FYI - Before anyone asks, yes I will be updating the tool for 1.0.8x classic and 1.1.x Disharmony expansion.

It'll be a couple days, probably this weekend as I've not had a ton of time in recent weeks and due to lots of churn during beta I had decided to wait till closer till final release to focus back on making all the needed changes and testing, apologies, it will come though.

Definitely looking forward to this, because I've purchased the disharmony expansion and then, for some reason, thought the editor would still work afterwards, so when I attempted to play around with the systems and constellations it wouldn't work!



So, long story short: looking forward to the updated ESMapEditor already. You're doing some great work here, keep it up!

New Monitor arrived today... hooray!

Is your editor's source hosted on Github or somewhere similar?

It is not.

I don't plan too for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread, if and when I abandon the project though it I likely will post it all somewhere public.