Perhaps unadministrated cities should produce their own culture that is considered mechanically distinctive but related to the culture. Think English, Welsh, Scottish all part of a Brittish culture but not a single colour blob. Everyone of my play throughs involved my culture just blobbing out.

It seems there are some differing views on what Imperialism should mean in this game. But I see it as just a matter of naming and what really needs to be discuss here is how elimination should become available and what consequences should follow. While I agree it appearing in 150 turns is quite early but don't think it should be delayed to the contemporary era. I'd rather suggest unlocking anti-imperialism v imperialism choice for everyone once the imperialism civic gets enacts by someone on the globe - so that others can react to the change of the rule.

Plus to that, in my opinion, while it is natural to related MAD with elimination but elimination can be done in several ways, including cultural extinction without razing the whole empire. And I see Imperialism as one of them in a sense of destruction of indigenous legacies and spreading biased interpretations of history.

PARAdoxiBLE wrote:
I'd rather suggest unlocking anti-imperialism v imperialism choice for everyone once the imperialism civic gets enacts by someone on the globe - so that others can react to the change of the rule.

I like this idea a lot, and I agree with the reasonings. Elimination is a good way to prevent additional Fame accumulation and thus needs to be possible, but being able to do it early curtails the usefulness of the Vassal system, which is more interesting and is also a good way to allow players to lose wars early but still accumulate Fame all game and thus have a chance later.

However, the game's Fame system should already be balanced such that players tend to still be in the race even if they are behind, so elimination as a Fame-stopping strategy does not need to happen mid-game either. I think Industrial is appropriate, and Imperialism is a fine theme for it. I think there should be a window where Imperialists have a chance to eliminate high-scoring but tech-lagging (because they are staying in old eras to score more) opponents before those opponents get to choose Anti-Imperialism for defensive bonuses. This Civic's unlock rules would then seem to be "first to reach Industrial or reach Industrial as a Vassal/Overlord or reach Industrial and know an Imperialist"

Atlas47 wrote:

Elimination is a good way to prevent additional Fame accumulation and thus needs to be possible

This is why I think Elimination should not be possible/practical. No empire should be able to go, "I don't like that they're ahead, let's just get rid of them." The other issue is that players that are ahead in score likely are ahead in general as well, making it so that it is possible for the empire that is already ahead to prevent others from catching up by eliminating them. Elimination also is not really an "expenditure" (what is that word I'm thinking of?), because it counts towards both the Expansionist and Militarist star.

FlamingKetchup wrote:

Atlas47 wrote:

Elimination is a good way to prevent additional Fame accumulation and thus needs to be possible

This is why I think Elimination should not be possible/practical. No empire should be able to go, "I don't like that they're ahead, let's just get rid of them." The other issue is that players that are ahead in score likely are ahead in general as well, making it so that it is possible for the empire that is already ahead to prevent others from catching up by eliminating them. Elimination also is not really an "expenditure" (what is that word I'm thinking of?), because it counts towards both the Expansionist and Militarist star.

Players that are ahead in score will only be ahead in general if the numbers are tuned that way. If they make additional Era Stars worth more points such that purposely lagging behind to get more stars is worthwhile, and make Era Stars harder to get proportionally to how much yield you have when you enter the next era (or some other condition), then those with more Fame may actually be vulnerable.

Furthermore, even if an empire is ahead, if they are ahead by enough, you still won't be able to catch up to them. So it isn't an auto-win. I am talking about having this elimination possibility only at the end of the game, so that it increases the stakes and gives a possibility to come from behind. If someone is ahead they can end the game early, but opponents can also get combat boosts against such a player so it isn't necessarily so easy to bully other players out of the game.

Also, I think the word you are looking for is "cost" or "loss". "Expenditure" sounds more like you're getting something for your spending, which is actually what it is because, as you mentioned, you get stars for it.

FlamingKetchup wrote:

Imperialism could be Vassalizing Empires counts towards your territory. Also, the quote "Elimination should be "Ha... Wow.. I did what?!" not "Another Empire down, 2 more to go." is from me, not RobotDoctorRobot.

Ops, my apologies for mixing up everyone's names from our discord discussion. Fixed