FlamingKetchup wrote:

I don't know why you think they overhyped the game, or are convinced that this game is going to sink Amplitude. There really is very little base for your worries, other than "It's been delayed"

So Amplitude calling it their dream game, the game that they always wanted to make despite it clearly not being polished and developed enough, is not overhyping? Plus with the fact that they consider this game as the game they always wanted to make, meaning that they probably spent a major portion of time, money and resources developing, and are now probably over budget and spending even more resources than planned because of being delayed. It might not cause them to shut down if humankind fails, but it will definitely screw their company badly if it fails to recuperate the resources and money spent making the game, not to mention the potential loss of goodwill from the community, especially if problems like denuvo are allowed to persist.

Sublustris wrote:

FlamingKetchup wrote:

I'm certain none of them had Denuvo, people were playing them after the official end by disconnecting the internet (also I've played it during the official time when my Internet was off, too) , something that almost certainly wouldn't work if there was online DRM.

'cause it isn't always online, it's not even DRM

From the Denuvo website:

Denuvo is the global #1 Games Protection and Anti-Piracy technology helping game publishers and developers to secure PC, console and mobile games.

So by saying it's "Anti-Piracy technology" they're the ones calling it DRM.  They also refer to it as anti-tamper in the page, but anti-tamper is still part of the Digital Rights Management (DRM) process.

While I will agree that Denuvo is not always online, it still needs to generate and store an offline token via authentication with Denuvo servers. I can't remember offhand how long it takes for that token to expire, but the bottom line is that when the servers go offline you're locked out of your purchase if you ever need to generate a new token (as part of a reinstall, for example).

Kwami wrote:

It doesn't matter if we're a minority of players. We're a group with a grievance that we'd like the developers to hear about and possibly act upon. Thus, we post here in the forum. We don't need you to tell us that we're a minority or that the DRM doesn't bother you. Frankly, none of that matters.

I have nothing else to say to you on this topic.

Actually, it does matter if you are a minority. It matters quite a lot actually. Just so that we're clear here, we are talking about the group of people who think Amplitude themselves are responsible for overhyping this game here. Perhaps you're conflating it with another issue?

Kutuzov wrote:

Kwami wrote:

It doesn't matter if we're a minority of players. We're a group with a grievance that we'd like the developers to hear about and possibly act upon. Thus, we post here in the forum. We don't need you to tell us that we're a minority or that the DRM doesn't bother you. Frankly, none of that matters.

I have nothing else to say to you on this topic.

Actually, it does matter if you are a minority. It matters quite a lot actually. Just so that we're clear here, we are talking about the group of people who think Amplitude themselves are responsible for overhyping this game here. Perhaps you're conflating it with another issue?

Perhaps it is you that is confusing topics. This thread was started with a statement against Denuvo DRM. The overhyping talk came later.

And no, it really doesn't matter if we're a minority. We still want our voices heard. We don't need you reminding us that some other players don't care, or whatever.

Slashman wrote:

Why is everyone saying that Sega doesn't use Denuvo in Total War games?

Total War Warhammer I

Total War Thrones of Britannia

Total War: Three Kingdoms

Even in non total war games like Yakuza Like a Dragon.

Don't know where people got the idea that its not in Total War games,

I said it because... Well I certainly never realized it had it before until I double checked you and alright they do have it.

I am effectively going to say now that it doesn't damage my ability to play any of these games and my PC is a bit over 4 years old. So I guess I'm on the bandwagon now that Denuvo may be annoying but it isn't destroying my ability to play a game like some may claim. Unpopular opinion I guess but the reality of my game sessions.

Now if this means I could get even more FPS though without it I'm sure that is true I'm just saying I never realized playing total war that it was there I guess.

Kutuzov wrote:

Actually, it does matter if you are a minority. It matters quite a lot actually.

Sublustris wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote:
So by saying it's "Anti-Piracy technology" they're the ones calling it DRM.

No they aren't, don't make this up.

SpikedWallMan wrote:
They also refer to it as anti-tamper in the page, but anti-tamper is still part of the Digital Rights Management (DRM) process.

It works to protect existing DRM solution, but it isn't inherently its part.

This is drifting into semantics now.  Denuvo "Anti-Tamper" exists to micromanage digital access rights to the software which by definition makes it DRM.  It doesn't matter what Denuvo's marketing people decide to call it.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck, etc, etc.

Sublustris wrote:

SpikedWallMan wrote:
but the bottom line is that when the servers go offline you're locked out of your purchase if you ever need to generate a new token (as part of a reinstall, for example).

Bottom line is that you consistently assume Amplitude will go out of business before that, and if not they will be unwilling to remove it by then.

To be honest, I'm not particularly concerned about Amplitude going out of business.  Should that happen (hopefully it won't), I can still re-download the game from Steam and/or restore a backed up copy of the files.  The biggest concern is if Denuvo goes out of business or simply decides to end their existing DRM support (like they did for SecuROM).  Then I could still download a fresh copy from Steam, but it would not function at all.

Sublustris wrote:
And in latter case, "high seas" solutions exist, if you know what i mean.

SpikedWallMan wrote:
This is drifting into semantics now.  Denuvo "Anti-Tamper" exists to micromanage digital access rights to the software which by definition makes it DRM.  It doesn't matter what Denuvo's marketing people decide to call it.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck, etc, etc.

This has nothing to do with semantics or marketing, this has to do with how it works. It has a duck-bill, but it's not a duck - it's platypus. Existing DRM works mostly the same, with or without Denuvo. The latter just make it very hard to modify executable and disable DRM checks, i.e. to tamper with it. Hence - anti-temper. Players mostly used to all kinds of DRM at this point, they buy DRM-protected games from Steam, Origin, Uplay, EGS etc. without a second thought. But it's Denuvo anti-tamper implementation that rises most concerns, being a VM (and not even one nowadays) that bloats executable with tons of unnecessary instructions just to obfuscate actual logic, potentially hindering performance on low-end machines and producing unpredictable behavior, up to BSODs, in most severe cases of bad implementation.

SpikedWallMan wrote:
Interesting point.  So first of all, this is pointing out how ineffective DRM is in the first place because it is inevitable that pirates will get around it.  Secondly, it shows that pirated copies are superior to the ones delivered to paying customers which makes DRM anti-consumer.  And finally, it shows that paying customers who still want to play the game that they spent money on will one day be forced to browse sketchy "high seas" websites and download cracks potentially infected with who knows what solely because the customer decided to do the right thing and pay the company for the product.  So the notion of "you can pirate it when Denuvo gets discontinued" sounds like a very strong argument against Denuvo and DRM in general.

That I'm agreeing with, legit customers should not under any condition get inferior service.

But I'll add one small correction: denuvo's purpose is not to protect forever, but to delay crack process enough to secure initial sales. Those have largest share in overall profits. Whether or not this is effective at all and to what degree is debatable, of course. I think it depends on the nature of the game.

reich238 wrote:

Girls, boys, we are all here for the enjoyment. And we want this to be a great project, a great game. Maybe even for the history of humankind it can and will be a great game. I think we are all on the same page and we should perhaps not argue with each other on this level? I mean anyone who posts here will not be able to reasonably influence the game development. So maybe we just wait for a bit and if the game turns out to be great / not that great, we can also overcome this. I mean it as just a friendly reminder.

So everybody is just discussing an interesting topic and nobody is arguing, only this guy @Kutuzov who stated that does not care about DRM or the discussion and only cares why people have the liberty to express points of view different from him started to flame the forum with the hope that people will stop talking about things he does not want to hear. And because people still expressed their own opinions as feedback (the reason why the G2G site was made was exactly for that to give feedback no matter how small, large important or not, everybody can contribute) he started calling people minorities without a proof and other names, also he declared himself as the vast majority although he is just 1 person because he wants to flame the forum and although @Kwami and @Sublustris and others very well explained to him what the subject is he does not care and still flames people. Also because a mod posted that "he wants us to keep things friendly" as they should be honestly, @Kutuzov kept flaming people so they are rude to him and the thread is locked.

So please ignore him, don`t explain things to him, don`t argue with him as he already stated he does not care about DRM and the topic but he just flames people because they say things he does not want to hear and claims he is the majority although he is just 1 person. Let`s just be nice and continue talking the important subjects in peace

Some input for you

New Kotaku article about Resident Evil Village: Denuvo causes stuttering when the player kills a zombie and slows down performance. A cracked version of the game without DRM fixed the issues.

Tekken 7 Director Says: Denuvo DRM is Causing Performance Issues in the Game.

ExtremeTech tested games that had Denuvo removed and compared them to the version with Denuvo: Every tested games was slowed down by Denuvo.

Gaming Route article: Doom Eternal is unplayable on PC due to the Denuvo update

Gaming Route wrote:

“Constant, massive stuttering, Horrendous screen tearing despite having G-Sync, Locks 120Hz display at 60Hz, both in-game and on the Windows desktop.”

“ID software even told people how to uninstall Denuvo, but it installs again whenever people try to launch the game. ”

Benchmarks by Overlord Gaming: Performance & Loading Times tested before & after games dropped Denuvo

DMC 5 case for official versions of Denuvo v DRM-free : https://www.techpowerup.com/review/denuvo-performance-loss-test/

TechPowerUp wrote:

This is not a sweeping statement applicable to all games because Denuvo isn't a "one size fits all" DRM solution. Capcom is using Denuvo in what seems to be the best-possible manner—letting it do code-verification, piggy backing on a low-power part of the game engine that has minimal performance impact either way; it's entirely possible another developer will implement Denuvo differently (read: poorly), resulting in a higher performance impact. For example, nothing stops naive developers from putting the Denuvo checks into their rendering code to ensure every single frame is "protected", which of course will end up massively reducing framerate. I do suspect that Denuvo ships significant documentation and "implementation tips" with their libraries to avoid exactly that, though.

Khaar wrote:

Gaming Route article: Doom Eternal is unplayable on PC due to the Denuvo update

Gaming Route wrote:

“Constant, massive stuttering, Horrendous screen tearing despite having G-Sync, Locks 120Hz display at 60Hz, both in-game and on the Windows desktop.”

“ID software even told people how to uninstall Denuvo, but it installs again whenever people try to launch the game. ”

Gaming Route also wrote:

The team is working on allowing DOOM: Eternal to be launched for singleplayer offline play without requiring the installation of Denuvo Anti-Cheat.

Doom Eternal was controversial for its use of Denuvo Anti-Cheat, not anti-tamper. So this isn't the case we can look into.