loki64 wrote:

 Why couldn't they have been moved to an earlier era, as other studios have always done in similar games? Since I doubt that you will give them other technologies, then this nation will still build factories, but still run with spears?

Because, historically they were not in earlier era, industrial era cover 1700 to 1920, and Zulu clan is born, become an huge kingdom, got its cultural golden age ... in this era, and get its decline at the end of this period. And they are always today an important cultural and linguistic group, a really interesting one, for their music for one exemple among others.

" The Zulu were originally a major clan in what is today Northern KwaZulu-Natal, founded ca. 1709 by Zulu kaMalandela. In the Nguni languages, iZulu means heaven, or weather. At that time, the area was occupied by many large Nguni communities and clans (also called the isizwe people or nation, or were called isibongo, referring to their clan or family name). Nguni communities had migrated down Africa's east coast over centuries, as part of the Bantu migrations. As the nation began to develop, the rulership of Shaka brought the clans together to build a cohesive identity for the Zulu. "

Your point of view is more insulting in fact. Saying than a culture need to be in the past, when they are not in real life.

It's just completely silly to break reality, putting Zulu in the past because eurocentric biase.

Zulu poeple are a culture of the "industrial era" : a time period, it's not the era of industrialized cultures (which is really limited in term of possibilities : mostly about european nations or westernized cultures, and exclude a lot of cool and popular possibilities).

I copy-paste the excellent comment of ManitouWakinyan from reddit, with the context :

A little remember, the game is about cultures.

And only judge them on their weaponry, and throw them to medieval era or whatever : it's insulting.

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Btw, the impondo zenkomo is emblematic, because really effective, in the conquests of Zulu, and even succeful in some battles on British, even if this war was unfair. SO it's a legit pick for an Emblematic Unit : because singular and iconic doctrine with a melee unit (like the cuirassier for french).

In Humankind , you will discover coal with Zulu too, and build factories, and have an alternartive history.

BUT the era is accurate.

loki64 wrote:
If we talk about historicity-Siam did not use elephants with machine guns, they only used jingals. And there are a lot of such little things in the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haw_wars

Even if it was uncommon, rare, singular, and maybe really ineffective (I don't know). There is an elephant with a mounted machine gun on the right of the picture, possibly a vischer or a maxim. And probably the left blurry elephant too.

It is more for the trivia. I'm not fan of this uncommon unit, and the design is a little too much fantasy in the game

For the rest, I was right, you want to exclude Zulu cultures because your own criteria, about spears and writing. So, it's not Amplitude which is insulting and disrespectful.

Again, in Humankind, you play a culture. But you will live an alternative history. You will not face British, you will discover coal, build factory, maybe invest in technology and get early planes with Zulu.

But you will enjoy the unique traits of Zulu, so their singular and efficient military doctrine, their cool aesthetic, the impi which will probably be really efficient in the early part of industrial era, like it was in real life.

@loki64 As for the Zuluz in the Industrial era. As @Narcisse has to eloquently explained, that was the time period they appeared in.

As for:

loki64 wrote:

Well, then we should take away the opportunity to build factories and other industrial-era buildings from them, because unfortunately they didn't use them. Just because I repeat once again, if you have industrial production, you will not produce spears as the main weapon of your army, only for ceremonial purposes.

You yourself say that the game is about cultures, but the problem is that the Zulus did not reach industrialization at that time. In addition, they did not have their own written language. Don't you think it's strange to put a nation that doesn't have a written language on the same level? 

If we talk about historicity-Siam did not use elephants with machine guns, they only used jingals. And there are a lot of such little things in the game.

  

We plan to play the game(and the game admits a certain historical inaccuracy), but in the game people without writing, with spears, will face other civilizations on equal terms.

Well Humankind has stated that it is historically "based" but not a historical simulator or perfect recreation. Acctually it's a "what if" historical game. This is the chance to see how it could have been "if"...etc.... A chance to alter history for some people maybe. Maybe play a Zulu and beat the British and become the worlds major naval force, or have the first tanks etc. No insult intended to the British of course. There are cultures since long gone in Humankind too. Like the Carthaginians who was wiped out by Rome long ago. Still You can chose to ascend them all the way up to our time if that is Your preference. Maybe use them to beat the Romans etc. If You try to view it as one of the Grand Strategy Boardgames that tries to for example recreat WWII battles and such You have probably misunderstood what Humankind is about. No insult intended. In fact You could say the same about Civlization then too. Why in Civ can we play the Zulus and run around with machine guns or even have have Tanks ???

As I already said it is "based" off of history in the sense that it uses real historically existing cultures and units as models as well as wonders. It is however not a perfect recreation or simulation of history. It's about "creating You own history". 

To me to be able to play the Zulus and maybe become the dominant Zulu Nation and take over the world is not what I would call "disrespectful  to black people". Quite the opposite. Btw, as a sidenote I was a huge fan of Tommy Boy records music back in the days. I even have a signed copy of "Ladies First" 12 inch vinyl on Tommy Boy label, as I meet Queen Latifah in a club I played as a DJ in back in those days. Afrika Bambaataas music (on tommy boy records) and his interviews and massages was what even brought my attention to The Zulu Nation and it's history and heritage. That was long ago now and I haven't followed much of Tommy Boy Records and all that since I stoppped being a DJ, but back in those days I was alot into their labels music.

Don't forget that this is a game. There are many features that are "unrealistic" but makes the game more fun and playable. That is the way it is with most games. We don't need to read something "insulting to...(insert whoever feels triggered...)" into everything. Just take it as a game meant to be fun to play. Not some hidden agenda to insult this or that group of people. Of course that does not excuse adding just anything and being outright insulting on purpose. In that sense I'm happy that You stay vigilante and bring up a discussion about it. However I don't see anything like that with Humankind. Even the name has consideration behind it. It could have been called just "Mankind", but that would probably insult some, so they used "Humankind". Which is perfect. So I don't think having Zulus using spears and at the same time being able to use machine guns or build factories and tanks is in any way intentionally meant as an insult or disrespectful to anyone.

The big issue is if Civilizations are in different Eras at the same time.   If so the Zulu (1700-) would be a Medieval/Modern civ fighting Industrial civs.  The Zulu should be in, (for some non merchant subsaharan africa), but in the Modern Era (remove venetians) and put meiji Japan in Industrial (as Builder)

loki64 wrote:

Well, then we should take away the opportunity to build factories and other industrial-era buildings from them, because unfortunately they didn't use them. Just because I repeat once again, if you have industrial production, you will not produce spears as the main weapon of your army, only for ceremonial purposes.

So if I follow correctly, you want the game to push the Zulu back an era or two "like other games" but also want to arbitrarily remove their access to things like technologies you claim they never used which is actually unlike the "other games" you're alluding to in which even if you play the Zulu, or the Cree, or the Babylonians you can reasearch technologies like gunpowder and steel and coal and such with them? 

loki64 wrote:

If you're making a "what if" game, think about this: historically, the Zulu didn't have enough power to compete on an equal footing with empires like Britain, so why not give them a chance? In the 5th civilization, this is one of the strongest military factions, in no small part due to the strong unit "IMPI", which replaces the standard units at the appropriate level of technology development. However, to maintain balance, this unit is given at the appropriate time. Long before industrialization. Otherwise, it would either be too weak to be able to do anything against the modern armies of the enemy, or it would have to be made incredibly strong(unrealistic)

Honestly, if you're looking for a game that "realistically" depicts the Industrial Era, I suggest Victoria 2 from Paradox. Humankind is a more "what if" scenario - what if the Zulu emerged with the capacity to industralize. That is what they're aiming for, and a main reason to include the Zulu. Heck you could make the same argument for Qajar Persia in the game. They didn't technically industralize at all during this period, it wasn't even their golden age. Yet here they are.

I wonder, how come people are complaining that the Zulu Kingdom is in the Industrial era in Humankind, yet America can exist in 4000BC in Civ and no one bats an eye?

loki64 wrote:

If you're making a "what if" game, think about this: historically, the Zulu didn't have enough power to compete on an equal footing with empires like Britain, so why not give them a chance? In the 5th civilization, this is one of the strongest military factions, in no small part due to the strong unit "IMPI", which replaces the standard units at the appropriate level of technology development. However, to maintain balance, this unit is given at the appropriate time. Long before industrialization. Otherwise, it would either be too weak to be able to do anything against the modern armies of the enemy, or it would have to be made incredibly strong(unrealistic)

Everything you're insisting the devs do they've already done or makes no sense given HK's mechanics; ascending through eras is not held back by technology; you can enter the 5th Era, the Industrial era, without gunpowder units entirely if you aim to do so and will, if you choose Zulu, start it with access to a Emblematic Unit that wont require the same technologies to be researched as Line Infantry or Artillery, and will come with bonuses to combat against stronger units and the Zulu's healing buff. Otherwise, playing as the Zulu does not preclude you from deciding to access gunpowder and coal, or take those things away from your civilization if you already got them, and all that if you so wish to invest your scientific infrastructure into it. You are not pigeonholed into having your entire army reduced to spear men any more than the French need build heavy cavalry everygame. 

Humankind does not work like Civ in all its mechanics, the way era advancement and science works particularly is different from what you're assuming it should be like. It should behoove you to understand this before perhaps continuing to argue against the inclusion of the Zulu on a faulty premise.