I know this is a rather loud headline, but I think most Ukrainian players and players from other countries resent the fact that the emblematic units in Russian culture are the Cossacks.

Therefore, I would like to discuss this issue, cite some historical facts, and listen to your thoughts on whether it is appropriate to use these units for this culture?

Cossacks are a predominantly Eastern Slavic Orthodox (but originally Turkic) group of people originating from the steppes of Ukraine.

They began to settle in the lower reaches of large rivers, such as the Dnipro and Don, after the demise of the Khazar state.

In the 16th century, these Cossack societies merged into two independent territorial organizations, as well as other smaller, still separate groups. The main ones were the Zaporizhia Cossacks (Zaporizka Sich) and the Don Cossack State.

The Don Cossack army was either an independent or an autonomous democratic republic located on the territory of modern southern Russia, but the gene pool of the Don Cossacks consists mainly of the East Slavic component with a significant Ukrainian contribution. Unfortunately, after the complete capture of the free territories of the Don Cossacks under the control of Moscow, the history of the Don Cossacks became even more intertwined with the history of the rest of Russia. The expansionist ambitions of the empire were based on ensuring Cossack loyalty, which caused tension in view of their traditional use of freedom, democracy, self-government, and independence.

Zaporizhzhya Sich is a semi-autonomous formation and proto-state of the Cossacks that existed during the 16th-18th centuries, including as an independent stratocratic state as part of the Cossack Hetmanship for over a hundred years, centered around the region of the Kakhovsky Reservoir. located. . now it is located and covers the lower reaches of the Dnipro in Ukraine. At different times, the territory came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, and the Russian Empire.

Struggle with the Crimea, Ottoman and Russian Empires for the identity of the Cossacks. In 1775, shortly after Russia annexed the territories given to it by the Ottoman Empire, Catherine the Great destroyed Sich. And included its territory in the composition of the so-called Russian province of Novorossiya.

I believe that Cossacks are a Ukrainian heritage and it is inappropriate to attribute it to Russian culture!

Therefore, I look forward to your thoughts on this topic.

I do not know much at all on the topic, so I went to wikipedia, which seem to have taken for some time an interest in the matter.

From what I get from the „Cossack hosts“ page, there were many hosts during the Russian Empire, some of them clearly not in Ukrainian location (Kuban, Terek, Astrakahn, Ural, Siberia, Baikal, etc. if my geography is correct, which is not sure...). We are talking ancient enough tradition and as I understand it, something well ingrained into the culture. I see no reason to deny the unit to the culture, as, if there were Cossacks in other countries (Ukraine, Poland for example), they are part of the Russian history too.
If we had a Ukrainian culture, it might be better to switch it to it, if the time period fit, but we only have the Russian one.

Sublustris wrote:

Foreigners in denial. Remember kids, when you hear word "cossacks", first and foremost it means "The Cossacks of Ukraine".

Cure_off wrote:
some of them clearly not in Ukrainian location

Kuban was historical and ethnical land of Ukranians. Here's French map of Ukraine circa 1919:

Thanks for pointing that out but wasn't it russian territory before that? :

After the Russo-Turkish War of 1768–1774, the population of the area started to show more pro-Russian tendencies.[1]

In order to stop Turkish ambitions to use Kuban region to facilitate the return of the Crimea, Russia started to establish a network of fortifications along the Kuban River in the 1770s.[1]  After the Russian annexation of the Crimea, right-bank Kuban, and Taman in 1783, the Kuban River became the border of the Russian Empire.[1]  New fortresses were built on the Kuban in the 1780s–1790s

Source

I suppose as you guys are slavic you miss the cultural mark of cossacks on Europe. For an example, especially in Western Europe, if you ask anyone to name famous russian regular unit they will name cossacks, just because in 1814 when russians entered Paris cossacks were too active and unique for locals, therefore they impressed them too much (also here comes legend for name of Bistrot’s). So, the point is that cossacks here are not some culture or nation, but an army formation of russian empire of that time…

Sublustris wrote:

Your source is translated russian history book. Just saying. After Golden Horde dissipated, Kuban was part of Crimean Khanate and later part of Ottoman empire. When russian empire conquered that patch of land, they resettled Zaporozhian Cossacks there after Zaporozhian Host liquidation. As a result, up until Holodomor (man-made Great Famine of 1933-1934), major part of population consisted of Ukranians. 

Is it false?
So, the Russian Empire did conquer that land and put Cossacks on it. It seems to work well enough with what Humankind chose.

8B46CCBE-D057-416E-9A43-0A53A09DE42C.jpegI mean, I just checked up wiki, and there are two links for ukrainian and russian cossacks, so maybe you misplace them..? Also, this is complete argument for me from wiki, about such unit choice: “The service of the Cossacks in the Napoleonic wars led them to be celebrated as Russian folk heroes, and throughout the 19th century a "powerful myth" was promoted by the government that portrayed the Cossacks as having a special and unique bond to the Emperor.[73] This image as the Cossacks as the ultra-patriotic defenders of not only Russia, but also of the House of Romanov was embraced by many ordinary Cossacks, making them into a force for conservatism.[73]

By the 19th century, the Russian Empire had annexed the territory of the Cossack Hosts, and controlled them by providing privileges for their service such as exemption from taxation and allowing them to own the land they farmed. At this time, the Cossacks served as military forces in many wars conducted by the Russian Empire.”

No offence, but I mean there is nothing said about their nationality and they served for russian crown…Maybe you mean ukrainian cossacks from wiki? And even if they ukrainians, they fought for russian army as it written in wiki, and you agree that they were used by russians. I mean it is not unique example, just look at Byzantium eu, he looks like viking and I read that they are norsemen, but they served for Byzantium crown so now they are Byzantium unit, so it is the same point here… 

Giving the daring absence of Kyivan Rus', which is where Varangians were drafted from, I don't agree with the choice either.

By that logic English should have Gallowglass as their emblematic unit, rather then longbowmen.

As for me, it is just okay, even if French had Moroccan legion, or Franks had Genoese crossbowmen as eu. Cause it is all about ebmlematic units, despite their origin. Usually every 4x strategy have those units to be emblematic, and slavic vikings for Byzantium seems cool for me, love this unit too much

Sublustris wrote:

You are missing the point, that it's like taking austrian elite unit and attributing it to Germans. One can hardly imagine a unit more emblematic for Ukrainians then Cossacks. They were a power world reckoned with long before moscow's betrayal of Pereiaslav Agreement.

I'd say, that one can hardly imagine a unit more emblematic for Russians than the Cossacks.
It doesn't seem unfair, as the territory that is Ukraine now was part of the Russian empire, so people of ukrainian culture (if I understand correctly it already existed) fought for Russia.
You seem to look at it with the eyes of today, at a time where an independant Ukraine is a fact but there was none then.

Sublustris wrote:

Giving the daring absence of Kyivan Rus', which is where Varangians were drafted from, I don't agree with the choice either.

By that logic English should have Gallowglass as their emblematic unit, rather then longbowmen.

The longbowmen are emblematic of England.

Do you think we should we end up taking the U-boot from Germany because Ictineo II was Spanish and die Plonger war French, and then the Peral Spanish and the Gymnote French again? It seems not a question of who gets what first but of what fits well with the time period, what is emblematic of a country or another.
If you wish to go »on the road of firsts«, if I read correctly, the first Ukrainian Cossacks only surface around the XV century or so, before that, they were tied to another culture. Should we give them the cossacks then?

The encyclopedia seems to provide a decent description for the Cossacks as a unit. No mention of Ukraine as it would be anachronic.

Cure_off wrote:
You seem to look at it with the eyes of today, at a time where an independant Ukraine is a fact but there was none then.

Manipulative bullcrap. Cossack Hetmanate was independant at the beginning. Note that even after it fell under Tsardom protectorate, it still maintained independance, as the union was signed as purely military, not a political alliance. Ukraine was reffered as Ukraine, or State of Ukraine by Poles, Ottomans and Arabs. This is a map by Johann Homann, german cartographer, circa 1720:

Cure_off wrote:
The encyclopedia seems to provide a decent description for the Cossacks as a unit. No mention of Ukraine as it would be anachronic.

I think foreigners should STFU and stop telling Ukrainians about their history learned through russian anb soviet historians, that slot is already occupied by russians. 

That’s very impolite behaviour, I believe there is no any reason to reply on it, but at least if your history is so different from European than  why you are claiming European game for it