Zolobolo wrote:

- Marines instead of the ships themsleves participating in land battels to make them always usefull there and prevent exploit of their limited range and movement (cant leave sea tile)

Having ships turn it land units for battle kind of defeats the purpose of them being ships. Perhaps Naval Units don't require population, since it should take significantly less people to man a ship?

FlamingKetchup wrote:

Zolobolo wrote:

- Marines instead of the ships themsleves participating in land battels to make them always usefull there and prevent exploit of their limited range and movement (cant leave sea tile)

Having ships turn it land units for battle kind of defeats the purpose of them being ships. Perhaps Naval Units don't require population, since it should take significantly less people to man a ship?

Is it possible to leave the need for people? Part - crew, part - Marines / landing.

Zumwalt wrote:

FlamingKetchup wrote:

Zolobolo wrote:

- Marines instead of the ships themsleves participating in land battels to make them always usefull there and prevent exploit of their limited range and movement (cant leave sea tile)

Having ships turn it land units for battle kind of defeats the purpose of them being ships. Perhaps Naval Units don't require population, since it should take significantly less people to man a ship?

Is it possible to leave the need for people? Part - crew, part - Marines / landing.

The proposal is a bit tricky I agree but is not totally unheard of. At least in Rome 2 and Attila , it was possible to land the crew of ships onto shore and ifght (which was usualyl a wise thing to do due to limited ship firing range and most ships not being ranged at all) + Total War games have moved into a direction of not having naval combat at all but unloading troops from ships onto shore so the base idea is frequently there)

I do like the idea of removing pop requirement for ships as well thouhg I am a bit afraid how that would affect balance. In genreal it is good to not have excpetion to in-game rules but thenagain some units already need strategic resoruces and the requiremetn is clearly communicated at the bottom of the unit icon so it would probably fly

Also quite sure that removing pop requirement is a very simple move from DEV side

I like both ideas: marines and no pop need but one pretty much cancels the other out ofcourse as if ships get marines they should then really take up pop for balance sake

The need to marines is mostly due to the tricky nature of combined warfare and and sea: it is hard to imgaine that heavy exploits aisnt ships can be prevented and if there is no naval support for land units that jsut decreases ship usefullnes even furhter

Currently ships come in at the very end of the first proper era (in the best of cases), they can explore a limited amount of the map mostly restricted to local continetn shores that land units alrady exlored by then or islands that rarely hold any value. When something of value is found on an island and troops are needed, it is a huge investment of tiem and resoruces to get those land units there and set up shop. That is why ships need to be able to fight on land: maybe even take settlements by their own if enough of them are sent and set up shop.

If marines are used the above can be achieved

If pop is not needed they can be built en-mas more esaily for sure but they will still not be able to take settlements, support land units and defend thus a proper army needs to be sent

So overall I would prefer marines for the above goal but removing pop need would be simpler and also surely increase their feasibilty just not sure if they would have something meaningfull to do in the end with their number

Zolobolo wrote:

Noticed something even worse thouhg when lookingat the teh tree like this: Unless the palyer takes Phoenicians, the game does not offer any combat ship types till the very end of Classical age (the Transport Galley can be used of course for vomba as well but that is risking valuable ground troops)

Umm, you missed Pentekonters, which are Ancient Era. Also the Norse Langskip.

By the way, it is a mystery to me why the quadrirama (ancient rowing ship) is in the Medieval Era. In my opinion, it would be more logical to move it to the latest technologies of the Ancient Era. And in the Medieval Era add a galley, which appears around the year 1000 in the Italian city-republics. 

It is also good to add a galleon to smooth the transition between the carcass and Man of war . 

P.S. The question may arise as to why 2 links in the evolution of ships are in the same era. However, no one cares about the presence of scouts and horse scouts in the same era.

FlamingKetchup wrote:

Zolobolo wrote:

Noticed something even worse thouhg when lookingat the teh tree like this: Unless the palyer takes Phoenicians, the game does not offer any combat ship types till the very end of Classical age (the Transport Galley can be used of course for vomba as well but that is risking valuable ground troops)

Umm, you missed Pentekonters, which are Ancient Era. Also the Norse Langskip.

Yes, it has been replaced by the culture specific Bireme so the availability does not change: these ships are only available at the end of Ancient Era

I suggest moving the first combat/trade ship type (if unique or the Pentekonters) to the early or mid tech level of Ancient Era AND moving the first transport ship or any unique tech overwriting it to the at latest the end of Ancient Era or even earlier to that: there should be really no reason to delay the game over sea by restricting availability via tech. If someone wants to head out already in Ancient Era that should be possible and encouraged

Yes there are surely other culture unique ships (such as a Fire Ship maybe a Turtle or Treasure ship) on the tree as well and more might come just wanted to point out availability and the progression of ships stats which while they seem to have a gap in them at mid-term, that might e filed in with the unique ships types

Zumwalt wrote:

By the way, it is a mystery to me why the quadrirama (ancient rowing ship) is in the Medieval Era. In my opinion, it would be more logical to move it to the latest technologies of the Ancient Era. And in the Medieval Era add a galley, which appears around the year 1000 in the Italian city-republics. 

It is also good to add a galleon to smooth the transition between the carcass and Man of war . 

P.S. The question may arise as to why 2 links in the evolution of ships are in the same era. However, no one cares about the presence of scouts and horse scouts in the same era.

Its all good: the Quadrireme is indeed located in Classical Era

Combat units:

Ancient Era Late: Pentekontere 22/4/1 (combat, movement, range)

Classical Era Late: Quadrireme 28/4/1 (this is the first combat ship available to all so the minor difference to the above is no problem)

Early Modern Early: Carack 39/6/2

Early Modern Late: Man o War 53/6/2

Transport Units:

Classical Early: Tansports Galley 18/2/1

Medieval Mid: Cog 33/4/1

Early Modern Early: Fluyt 41/4/1

But if you meant it should be located at the end of Ancient Era or beginning of Classical Era I agree

The Carack was indeed an Early Modern era ship - but it might just fit into the end of the Middle Ages

Then you would have place for the Galleon at the beginning of the Early Modern Age so something like this maybe?:

Combat units:

Ancient Early: Pentekontere 22/4/1 (combat, movement, range)

Classical Early: Quadrireme 28/4/1 (this is the first combat ship available to all so the minor difference to the above is no problem)

Medieval Early: Carack 39/5/2

Early Modern Early: Galleon 49/6/2

Early Modern Late: Man o War 53/6/2 (maybe slight increase to combat here)

Transport Units:

Ancient Early: Tansports Galley 18/2/1

Medieval Mid: Cog 33/3/1

Early Modern Early: Fluyt 41/4/1

The missing progression for transport units could be filled in with a faction unique ship or two in Classical Age

Zumwalt wrote:

You did not fully understand me. Between quadrirama and karraka there is a sharp transition from oars and melee to guns and long range. This gap can be filled with a medieval gallery, which had oars, sails and several guns.

Combat units:

Ancient Early: Pentekontere 22/4/1 

Classical Early: Quadrireme 28/4/1 

Medieval Early: Medieval Gallery ( or just a Galley  ) 34/5/1

Mediaval Late: Carack 39/5/2

Early Modern Early: Galleon 49/6/2

Early Modern Late: Man o War 53/6/2

I see what you mean - My suggestion above was to reduce only the movement of Caracks (proposed changes are lsited in red) and introduce Galleon in between Carack and Man o War

Sure: the combat strenght could as well be reduced for Carack to make it fit more seamlessly into the combat shp upgrade chain - I am pretty sure there will be balancing still to all these stats by the DEVs and migth very well be adressed

There are sea-tiles in the beta and in other similar games) that allow building of harbor:

Suggest to prevent the building of harbors in inland seas - e.g.: by using a different type of sea tile that does nto allow building of harbors ships etc. This is to avoid wasted time resources and is pointelss overall to have a habor like this

Also suggest avoiding inland seas altogehter and only genrate open seas as discribed above: if its already sea make it useful :)

It's not an inland sea, it's a lake. Lakes can still be exploited, and lakes can host naval units (although right now this is useless since Naval Units can't due anything in land battles, but that's something else).

FlamingKetchup wrote:

It's not an inland sea, it's a lake. Lakes can still be exploited, and lakes can host naval units (although right now this is useless since Naval Units can't due anything in land battles, but that's something else).

It is a tile where harbor and ships can be built and I recommend not having these tiles or not allowing building of harbors on them (evne if ships can participate in land battles which will open up a whole host of issues we have alread mentioned in this thread)

Can be called whatever I dont mind :) If it is alread a diffetn type of tyle then shallow and deep water tiles that should make it easier to put a constraint on them as locations for harbors

What districts to cultivate lakes? This is a necessity: Joseon, for example, has a bonus for science on the lakes.