In order for people to build a fleet, objects are needed that will be guarded by these ships. In addition to harbors and trade routes, these can be ... precious marine resources. In Lucy OpenDev it was just pearls (maybe more whales, but I haven't seen them).

You can enter the following valuable resources:

walruses (walrus tooth),

seals (seal fur),

purple (extracted from marine mollusks by the Phoenicians),

ansous (this fish was valuable both as food and as a raw material for the production of garum).

Zumwalt wrote:

In order for people to build a fleet, objects are needed that will be guarded by these ships. In addition to harbors and trade routes, these can be ... precious marine resources. In Lucy OpenDev it was just pearls (maybe more whales, but I haven't seen them).

 

You can enter the following valuable resources:

walruses (walrus tooth),

seals (seal fur),

purple (extracted from marine mollusks by the Phoenicians),

ansous (this fish was valuable both as food and as a raw material for the production of garum).

Good idea - some of the above could present tactical battles though it migth look strange in such a histocial title to fight seals. Maybe whales bu that is also a stretch

I was mostly thinking of lettingships establish outposts - that would lend purpose to having at least a couple of ships scouring for location and putting down the foor on shore

Another idea to incentivise having fleets is creating concentrated contested modies of water that are contested for he trade routes going through them, for htier islands cotnaining luxury resoruces and for hteir strategic location - the idea here would be to have these bodies of water act as the shortest route betwene most of the empires around the map - see some suggestins in the beginnning how this could look like

It basically to recreate the real-hisoric conflict zone of the mediterranean which lead to all the overseas combat due to how it connects all the palces and resources

The old concept used by CIV games to have water surround a cnsistent blub of continent does not serve this purpose of course

Zolobolo wrote:

Good idea - some of the above could present tactical battles though it migth look strange in such a histocial title to fight seals. Maybe whales bu that is also a stretch

These would be extractable resources, not neutral animal units.

Zumwalt wrote:

In order for people to build a fleet, objects are needed that will be guarded by these ships. In addition to harbors and trade routes, these can be ... precious marine resources. In Lucy OpenDev it was just pearls (maybe more whales, but I haven't seen them).

 

You can enter the following valuable resources:

walruses (walrus tooth),

seals (seal fur),

purple (extracted from marine mollusks by the Phoenicians),

ansous (this fish was valuable both as food and as a raw material for the production of garum).

Whales feels to 'Civ', maybe call it Ambergris?
Walrus Ivory for walruses

Tyrian purple/Purple dye for purple

And googling ansous only turns up spellcheckers.

FlamingKetchup wrote:
d googling ansous only turns up spellchecker

Might have mean ansorgii though that seems like a fresh water fish type - no problem if ther are islands though with freshwater bodies within them

FlamingKetchup wrote:
These would be extractable resources, not neutral animal units.

Dedicated resoruces are fine for islands - these were mentioned above already

But how would resources like walruses and seals be extracted like luxury resoruces are now in the game?

I was thinking on the actual anmials romaing around that need to be captured by untis - dont know how these would work as luxury resrouces then though (maybe with a coutndown timer?- but that might be too heavy on the micro side)

Zolobolo wrote:

FlamingKetchup wrote:
These would be extractable resources, not neutral animal units.

Dedicated resoruces are fine for islands - these were mentioned above already

But how would resources like walruses and seals be extracted like luxury resoruces are now in the game?

I was thinking on the actual anmials romaing around that need to be captured by untis - dont know how these would work as luxury resrouces then though (maybe with a coutndown timer?- but that might be too heavy on the micro side)

We can already extract pearls.

Mybe the simples way to have resoruces at sea is for the mto functionally be an exploitation that can only be created, captured or pillaged by naval units (embarked land units sohuld not have this function)

Such resources can be luxury resources, or elements of a trading system such as outposts that generate revenue based on proximity to one another and cities the faction has signed trade agreements with

If outpost at sea (visually on islands) cannot b created by naval units, then they could be generated automatically in between trading citites (it was suggested above that this should be the case but havent seen either land or sea based trade posts)

Since this thread is now alive again, let me take the opportunity to say:

Ranged naval units are already meant to be able to fire at land units when they are in the same battle. This was merely bugged in the Lucy OpenDev.

Yes, trade across island regions is possible and there will be ransackable "trade hubs" on coastal tiles even if the region is not owned by anybody, but the feedback for these (both in the menus as well as 3D models on the map) was not implemented for Lucy OpenDev yet.

Also, there are some sea resources, but these are on coastal tiles, not ocean regions.

The new open DEV map expands the range of shallow water missively and goes in the right direction IMO

Ships can now explore the map even if there are no open border treaties with other empires

Each Continent also now clearly has inner seas that can serve as focus points for naval combat (and trade if it will be working across sea as sea outposts are not yet created)

The rest of the issues remain:

1. Naval Units cannot meaningfully particiapte in land battles when these take place next to them - If all ships would start with range 2 (still shorter range the archers) it might help them participate at least in some occasions

2. Naval Units cannot establish outposts - they can explore but the player needs to research transports and send a land unit to establish outposts. I think this is clear improvement along hte lines how they streamlines establishing new cities on the land and would give a huge porpuse for evne th earliest of ships evne if there is no trade taking place

3. I cant tell if sea trade is cheaper then land as it doesnt seem to be working yet but hope this will be the case so that trade routes are likely to concentrate in the contested inner sea areas even if land route is available and thus becomes a focus point for naval combat and protection

Land trade is also messy to see due to the large amount of objects on land while sea tade should be much easier to see and will hopfeully breathe life into the sea regions that are very empty for now

4. Tech needs rebalancing: its still take at least Classical Era to roll out the first ship and since colonisation can only start with the first transport ship, expansion across sea doesnt realyl take place till early Middle Age it seems at which point we have already passed 3 ages, two types of combat ships, and at least 2 cultures that specialise on unique ships - this obviously needs balancing but at least no new fucntions just pushing around some tech

Can we bump this thread?

I just tried my first coastal game and naval units are extremely lackluster and useless.  I would describe my experience as frustrating and not enjoyable.

-Can they establish outposts to encourage building them?

-Do they really have no military use outside of harbor ransacking and other naval units?!

-Can they bombard or coastal raid or take districts or anything more?

-Can they have a buff versus embarked units?? (I lost a full naval fleet to embarked units with less overall strength and was floored when I lost)

-Can ocean be a bit less punishing or have it unlock sooner, most of the game was over before I could expand overseas as a coastal civ, feels bad.

-Also remove the unit movement penalty when you load a unit onto a naval transport.  If I loaded cavalry in the movement speed dropped to 2 so I couldn't move across the ocean, but later they embarked solo and had 8 movement??  Why are ships worse than embarking? It made no sense to me

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for having already created this thread. I came here today to find out if the modding tools were available yet and was really surprised to see like minded gamers and thinkers, as far as Naval Units go. Hopeful that much of what you all suggested/discussed here can be implemented through simple unit modding. My thoughts:

Establishing Outposts on Other Continents

Land Units can embark to traverse the water but can not do so safely and meaningfully until the Early Modern Era, with the exception of the Norsemen Langskip in the Medieval Era. Taking the Norsemen and having the Langskip allows you to bypass the Three-Masted Ship technology for a time as well. If the AI has already grabbed the Norsemen culture then you are forced to wait until Early Modern Era to claim land overseas. I am seriously considering adding the ability for Quadrireme's to be able to somehow claim territory, but do not want to undermine the uniqueness of the Norsemen culture. Having said that, I am thinking of the following.

This could be as easy as giving certain ships the same ability to establish outposts as Land Units have. If you ask the ship to establish an outpost inland it can not get to that location and will not be able to comply with the order. I am hoping that it can establish the Outpost one hex away from itself. If not, Hamlets and Harbors are established by the user via Outpost/City actions. Perhaps a new Naval Unit Action called "Meritime Outpost" could be created that allows the user to designate a hex to build an Outpost similar to how Harbors and Hamlets are done, but from the ship's Army Actions. It may also be possible to make the Unit based Outpost creation action not require the Naval Unit to move to the location, much like the Harbor and Hamlet actions. I am very eager to see what the modding tools will allow us to do.

Goody Huts in the Ocean

There are already many of them in the water tiles, they continually spawn randomly, and they not only spawn coin, science, and influence but they spawn same era ships on occasion.

Naval Bombardment

Battleships can bombard units and structures without being in actual battle, they can do it from the strategic map. Torpedo Boats can fire without requiring Line of Sight. My initial plans are to make the following changes to Naval Units; will adjust as necessary to ensure they are not overpowered and make the game too easy. I think that the other Naval Units have adequate roles for the moment, especially in the final eras. This list includes the Emblematic equivalents as well.

Carrack: Add Indirect Fire on battle screen. Reduce Range from 4 to 3. (Same as Torpedo Boat)

     *This is too allow it to shoot land units during battles.

Steam Frigate: Add Indirect Fire on battle screen. (Same as Torpedo Boat)

     *This is too allow it to shoot land units during battles, not to usurp the Torpedo Boat.

Torpedo Boat: Increase damage from 50 to 53 and/or increase range from 3 to 4.

     *This is to ensure the Torpedo Boat remains relevant and not usurped by the Steam Frigate.

Uboat (Germans): Increase damage from 53 to 55 and/or increase Range from 3 to 4.

     *This is to ensure the Uboat remains unique.

Man of War: Add Bombard on Strategic map. (Same as Battleship)

     *No plans to give indirect fire at the moment. Bombard on Strategic map gives this unit a special role.

Ironclad: Add Bombard on Strategic map. (Same as Battleship)

     *No plans to give indirect fire at the moment. Bombard on Strategic map gives this unit a special role.

Carracks upgrade to Steam Frigates which upgrade to Missile Cruiser which is Anti-Air.

Man of War upgrades to Ironclad which upgrades to Battleship.

Ocean and Coastal Hex Movement

My first playthrough I was fairly frustrated with the fact that from the Ancient Era to the Medieval Era ships can not traverse the open ocean without taking damage or even being completely lost at sea. With subsequent playing I now appreciate the gradual increase to safely traversing the Ocean; Coastal to Navigator to Skilled Navigator to High Sea. I may toy with movement rate a bit, but with The Great Lighthouse and the Norsemen Legacy your Naval Units are more than capable of navigating Large Maps effectively and efficiently. Huge Maps can be more of a challenge depending on the proximity of land masses of course. 

Have more thoughts, will return later.

The early game problems with naval could be partially reached by putting the sailing tech at the beginning of the tech tree instead of the end