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Crazy Mod Idea: City Lifespan

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3 years ago
Sep 14, 2021, 6:27:09 AM

Cities don't last forever. Most of the ancient world's greatest cities are now just ruins or entirely non existent. I think it would make for an interesting game mechanic if cities, outposts, and administrative centers had limited lifetimes after which they would fall into ruin.


The minor civilizations that pop up randomly already do this. I'm not sure what the mechanisms are that determine how long they stick around, but it at least shows that the capability is already there. My idea is that major empire's cities would start with a limited amount of turns and outposts/administrative centers would have a quarter as much as full cities. After the time runs out, the city falls into ruins and the population and territory are lost. The player can either reclaim the ruins and rebuild or leave them for another empire to pave over.


I figure that about 100 turns would be the maximum amount of time a city could last on normal speed which should translate to about 2 eras. However, the time it takes to fall apart would be doubled if stability is low and the population is stressed, and quadrupled if the city is in rebellion. Perhaps you may be able to reset the timer on outposts by attaching them to cities and also city timers could be reset by absorbing them into another city. Of course these options come with a stability penalty so it could just speed up the ruining of both cities.


The reason I like this idea is because I was kinda put off by the fact that my medieval empires could span an entire continent by 500 BC. Real world empires don't encompass the entire area of every tribe and civilization that came before them. You take the land that is good, keep it for as long as it's useful, and then move on to greener pastures. I think this idea works really well with the changing of factions system this game has. With this idea, an empire could slowly move across the world without having to manage and protect entire continents as it goes.

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3 years ago
Sep 14, 2021, 8:30:37 PM

There are settlements inhabited continuously since bronze age. There's a lot of settlements inhabited since antiquity. Great majority of medieval cities is still inhabited as well. Your entire point is invalid. 

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3 years ago
Sep 14, 2021, 9:31:52 PM


Sep 14, 2021, 5:29:28 PM




Well the point is for the cities to last multiple eras and possibly even longer with some effort, so you might be able to keep a city from ancient to contemporary age but likely not all of them. True there are several examples of cities that have lasted since medieval times and earlier, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples of ones that didn't, some of which we may never even know about because they are just gone.


Anyway, the point of my idea was not to be completely realistic, but to introduce some limitations to the amount of area an empire can control. Currently, you can slap down cities and outposts forever, so long as you have enough influence, and eventually you could gobble up the entire world and steamroll the other players. All I wanted was to slow down that process and make it more difficult to spiral out of control with territory. It didn't make sense to me that global domination could be achieved so easily by the renaissance period. Also, Amplitude thought it made sense for the minor factions to have limited lifespans so why not major faction cities as well?


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3 years ago
Sep 15, 2021, 12:40:13 PM

I do like this idea.


Nevertheless, I think it is important to have some mechanism to stop the fall of a given city, if I envest enough resources in it (mainly gold or influence). Maybe every half an era you should be required to pay a maintanence cost to reset the ticker. Also, if the city falls you should have the option to save it, but at a higher cost, and this time the new (or saved) city would be renamed after your current culture.

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3 years ago
Sep 15, 2021, 8:50:01 PM

I love that idea too. In that way you could either keep your ancient cities or reclaim them for a price but you get the new era artwork for the city center and a new name. I would try to put a cooldown on it as well if you let the city expire so that you risk allowing another faction to take control during the time it takes to rebuild.


I was also thinking that this could be a way to make the nomadic era a fully fledged era. Instead of outposts for future cities you lay down nomad camps that have a very short lifespan but still allow you to gather food quickly to increase your population and even do some research.

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3 years ago
Sep 21, 2021, 9:43:17 PM

I think encoding a hard limit on how cities last is a bad idea, but I have thought this before.


What would naturally make sense is that ancient cities, somehow, fail to scale into later eras, or may fail to take advantage of later era resources. Players can stick with their city and keep it updated at cost, but making a new city from scratch will keep you up to date. To me, the best benefit of this is that it would make losing cities hurt less - I think it would be nice to see borders be able to change more drastically without a player being curbed due to losing a heavily invested city. In extreme cases, a player might totally abandon a continent filled with enemies in order to focus on cities in a more isolated location.


Maybe districts need to be rebuilt in order to take advantage of changing infrastructure? 

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3 years ago
Sep 22, 2021, 4:15:40 AM

Right. Enforcing a hard turn limit on cities is a pretty poor way to go about it. Like aguaacrobata said, there should be a way to invest resources into a city to prevent its demise. There's already a tech that give new cities all the infrastructure from previous eras which is actually really nice and a huge incentive to keep expanding in the later game. And if the player had to potentially choose between maintaining the new powerful cities with all the infrastructure already built in or trying to keep and update the old cities, it could lead to some dynamic and interesting border shifting.


The rebuilding of districts to keep them updated idea is also a simple but effective solution. However, it's not enough on its own to potentially encourage me to abandon a city. But, if the population from a dying city instantly migrated to a nearby city of the same empire that would be a huge incentive to let old inefficient cities go.

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3 years ago
Sep 25, 2021, 9:10:00 AM

Earth2140 asked for help in making a couple mods that I think fit in with your ideas here.

https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/178-modding/threads/41976-two-mod-requests-willing-to-pay?page=1#post-340259


I too am partial to the idea that overtime, without proper maintenance your cities would begin to crumble. But I am not sure that ancient cities have actually disappeared because of neglect. They were usually destroyed by volcanoes, earthquakes and/or subsequent tsunami, fire, ransacking armies, plagues, encroaching deserts, or simply abandoned because they were no longer viable.  I think there could be Events created that would allow for these types of things to occur. The Events we currently see in game seem to be highly variable which indicates the Events System is extremely flexible. Some simply tell us something has happened and take something from us, or give us something. Others tell us something has happened and give us reaction choices which can be good or bad. And yet others trigger follow-on events that can be either good or bad depending on our choice in the triggering event. I am excited for the modding tools to arrive so that we can play around with the Events system. And of course if your empire is simply too large and troublesome to micromanage you can always liberate Outposts and Cities at any time. 


Up until fire departments, and eventually sprinkler systems and government enforced fire codes, many cities and towns burnt to the ground. Off the top of my head, in Japan the city of Meireki (sp?) burnt to the ground in 1650ish, Chicago nearly burn to the ground in 1871, Seattle in 1889. Earthquakes have been plaguing humankind since as far back as 18xx BC according to recorded events in China's history. Then there was Pompeii, or there wasn't Pompeii more accurately. The sands of the desert have been steadily burying ancient and modern Egyptian cities. Boom towns come and go during silver, gold strikes, and oil discoveries. 


Fires

There is already a Flood event in the game. Similar Events could be created as recurring Fire Events until Fire Brigade Infrastructure is built in the controlling city. There could be two or three techs added to the tree that allow you to build two or three Infrastructure items that would reduce and eventually eliminate the recurring Fire Event. Such as Fire Brigades in the Classical Era, Fire Codes in the Early Modern Era, and Fire Sprinkler/Retardation Systems in the Contemporary Era. If you choose not to implement the related Infrastructures your outposts, districts, or even whole Cities could be turned to ruins. 


Earthquakes

In the Classical Era you could add Earthquake Dampening technology to mitigate Earthquakes (Japan as early as 600 or so AD) , in the Early Modern Era you could add a tech for Tsunami Warning systems and in the Contemporary Era Earthquake Proof Building Codes. Otherwise recurring Earthquake Events destroy Outposts, Districts, Cities.  

 

Volcanoes

We will never be able to stop volcanic eruptions but sometimes we can give enough advanced warning to at least save a large portion of the local population. But as recently as 1980, the Mount St Helens event, we were unable to accurately predict when the eruption would occur and how big it would be; fortunately the loss of life was limited by other factors. I think in 1990/91 Mount Pinatubo was fairly accurately predicted and hundreds of thousands of people were evacuated. Recurring Volcanic Events could entirely wipe out Outposts, Districts and/or Cities up until say the Early Modern Era where you could research Volcano Monitoring Technology. This technology would not stop the Volcanic Event, but it could give the player Settlers or Engineers equal to say half of the City's population and then turn the City to ruins. These Volcanic Events might occur once every100 turns in Cities or Outposts within n-number of hexes of a Mountain hex.


This would probably take some scripting or coding, but you could take the volcano thing a step further where during map creation a percentage of the Mountain Hexes would actually be generated as Volcano hexes. Some would be known/revealed right away, but others would appear as mountain hexes until say the Early Modern era when we became aware that many of our mountains are actually dormant volcanoes. So with the learning of the Geology Tech these mountain hexes would be replaced with Volcano hexes much like the unknown resource ? hexes change to say Iron or Uranium hexes. The Volcanic Events would only occur in Cities or Outposts within n-number of hexes from the Volcano hexes.


So, again, I am excited and eager for the modding tools so that we can experiment with implementing these types of things in our own mods. I do have to say though, there is already a lot of things going on in the game that are consuming science and industry and adding too many things, especially in faster paced games, may detract from the overall experience. But hey, I am retired and have nothing but free time, so you can bet I will be playing around with these things. Including extending the "Endless" pace game from 600 turns to at least 1000.  

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Sep 27, 2021, 3:30:14 AM
Endless definitely needs to be longer... perhaps even unlimited as the name suggests. But, cities might be destroyed in a variety of ways and in this game there is currently only one way to lose a city which is by being captured. Like some other people have pointed out, there is sometimes little to actually do in between wars or if you are playing as a pacifist. I like the idea of natural disaster events prompting you to take emergency actions.
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