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Feedback: Religion

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4 years ago
Dec 15, 2020, 2:05:22 PM

Hey all!



We got quite a lot of feedback about Religion in Humankind during the Stadia OpenDev. We outlined our plans to address this feedback in our recent Lucy Announcement Blog, but many of these changes are already in this OpenDev for you to try out!


So please, let us know what you think of Religion now!

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4 years ago
Dec 16, 2020, 7:49:37 AM

The Religion tenets felt a lot better this time around, however I did find myself grabbing the ones that scaled with population over territory right now. That's partially due to how easy it is to grow food for more population though, and if I did the direct math I might pick differently.

I felt it strange that with 8 players there weer only 2 religions that formed. On Serious difficulty I was quickly able to spread my religion across my whole continent, and near the end of the game it was spreading to the eastern continent as well. I never felt threatened by the opposing religion and my neighbors didn't try to stop the spread of mine at all either.

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4 years ago
Dec 16, 2020, 1:21:49 PM

Going to echo the above. Way too easy to spread your religion everywhere - the AI seems to largely ignore the religion game.


I get the feeling that the items that scale with territory get a little better on a larger map with a single continent, but their scaling seems pretty bad compared to the population effects. 


I'd honestly like to see some more unique choices though. As it is right now, religion boils down to adding some extra numbers to your existing numbers. It doesn't really do much to alter gameplay. I'd like to see some more unique choices, say things that give you extra effects from luxuries, bonuses in cities over or under a certain population, effects in cities that have been conquered, that sort of thing. Some choices that are going to affect how you make decisions throughout the game, rather than just adding extra production, stab, gold, etc.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 17, 2020, 1:23:21 AM

There were many times in the game I played that I forgot about Religion entirely, despite being the leader of one. Occasionally I'd remember, click the Religion overview button and find i'd managed to spread my religion to everyone on my continent. That's cool I guess. But I have no understanding of how it spread, my neighbours didnt seem to mind either.


I feel like a notification to say when a city now has your religion as its majority would help a bit to remind me that its spreading.

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4 years ago
Dec 19, 2020, 4:17:37 AM

Same I didn't feel like I was involved at all in spreading my religion, it was cool flavour and nice to be able to pick some perks occasionally but I had no agency over making it spread faster.

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4 years ago
Dec 20, 2020, 12:27:00 PM

Religion in its current state is really boring, it's just another way to get + for your FIDS, it's doesn't feel like something special and meaningful that defines your culture. I like how you construct your religion step by step, but I really dislike dull options in it.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 20, 2020, 7:42:07 PM

I don't understand religion, produce this extra number so you can get extra numbers. It's all very passive and there was no competition so I don't really understand it. I feel in its state it's just tacked onto the rest of the game and has no place.


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4 years ago
Dec 20, 2020, 8:24:36 PM

I'd like to echo both Vigo and boat. Religion feels very bare-bones as of now, and there's no sense of identity or evolution to it. I simply don't care to build for religion, because there doesn't seem to be any point besides selecting tenets that aid your existing strategy. The evolution of your religion has no bearing on your circumstances or surroundings. Were my people inspired by the stars? Do they revere a war god? Do they see the sea as a fickle granter of both life and death? It's just some arbitrary thing that pops up once I have enough people. Boring!


I think that Civ6 plays it smart with their Pantheon system. You are incentivized to have at least a little faith in order to receive a bonus based on how you wish to define your religion. But it's the sense of identity that makes it intriguing to me. If I have a lot of horses around me, I can pick God of the Open Sky for the bonus culture, or God of War for bonuses to using those horses for war. It's interesting, and most importantly there's a strategic decision to be made that will affect how your culture evolves!


I do think it's cool how religious tensions can lead to war, keep that in! What you need to focus on is making religions feel unique, and making them something that the player has to work for, at least a little. If I ignore faith, I expect to have my people converted by someone who does. You also should consider how focusing on religion can help the player win. How do you make it more worthwhile for a player to build a holy site instead of, say a maker's quarter?


I hope this feedback helps and is taken to heart.



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4 years ago
Dec 20, 2020, 11:39:58 PM

+1 to Vigo and Boat. The faith/religion mechanic doesn't feel that different from stability / civics. It's a different set of numbers that seems to run in parallel to the stability/civics mechanic, and is thus kinda repetitive and redundant. Even if religion were better balanced, I'd still be unexcited. My vote would be to remove religion from the base game, develop it further, and then re-introduce it in an expansion, once the idea is developed to the point of feeling more unique and interesting.

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4 years ago
Dec 21, 2020, 2:25:44 AM

So this is harsh, but there is nothing about this religion system that I like. The tenets are entirely generic and feel a lot more mechanical than the civics. There is no interaction between civics and tenets. Its very difficult to read the mapmode; lots of text and numbers, but I don't really know what's going on (similar to the culture mapmpode). There is also nothing you can do in that mapmode, apparently. Religous crisis CB unlock automatically and have no relation to tenets. And worst of all - You can't build your holy site a couple of turns after you unlock it - seriously?


I'd really like to see the religious civics merge into the tenets and make them something more complex than a simple income bonus, and also affect your country's ideological parameters (as well as those of other countries!). Also, holy wars should be locked behind a tenet/civic.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 21, 2020, 6:30:43 AM
Mausklickmoerder wrote:

So this is harsh, but there is nothing about this religion system that I like. The tenets are entirely generic and feel a lot more mechanical than the civics. There is no interaction between civics and tenets. Its very difficult to read the mapmode; lots of text and numbers, but I don't really know what's going on (similar to the culture mapmpode). There is also nothing you can do in that mapmode, apparently. Religous crisis CB unlock automatically and have no relation to tenets. And worst of all - You can't build your holy site a couple of turns after you unlock it - seriously?


I'd really like to see the religious civics merge into the tenets and make them something more complex than a simple income bonus, and also affect your country's ideological parameters (as well as those of other countries!). Also, holy wars should be locked behind a tenet/civic.

  • Separation of civics and tenets
Religious civics and tenets are separated because some empires lose their religious leadership as the game progresses (mostly by converting to other religions for any reason). And it's also quite difficult to interlink them since tenets should be chosen among 4~8 different options while enacting 2~3 religious civics is not mandatory. (and it's not desirable to make it mandatory just because you or religious leader of your state religion have chosen a certain tenet)

  • Religious grievances

Religion-based territorial grievance is not a holy war you think. It doesn't include forced replacement of state religion. There is another religious grievance locked behind the civic choice called "Religious Hostility" and you can it to anyone with a state religion other than yours. It can be used to make a demand and it will force the opponent to convert to your state religion if accepted.

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4 years ago
Dec 21, 2020, 8:41:21 AM

The Spread is confusing and boring. 

3 reasons:
- it is not seen on the normal map mode.

- you don't get any stars

- spreading is boring, because you only have 1 metric: Just push out as much as possible. You cannot concentrate your efforts or have any other form of interplay. 

Tying your holy sites to an cap, supplemented by wonders is good, however. 


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4 years ago
Dec 21, 2020, 12:24:06 PM

Yea the tenets are kind of boring bonuses right now. It's just choosing whether you want more science, money, influence or stability. I would like some more interesting bonuses. 

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4 years ago
Dec 26, 2020, 8:10:24 PM

And at the current state, if you do not choose influence, you are doing it wrong (because influence is kind of important). So choosing a traditional civic and going all holy war is surprisingly effective to squash other civs.


If only there was something you could do to stop it.

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4 years ago
Dec 27, 2020, 12:48:25 AM

As with many of the other mechanics, there's a bit of a UI issue where you're not provided all of the info, and much of what is provided is hidden somewhat.  The biggest thing is: how much faith am I generating, and what effect does that have.  Hidden information is who else is following my religion and how many and just what other religions exist.  the option to switch away from the initial polytheism or shamanism is also not called out.


Anyway UI confusion aside,  I'm not sure what, the religion system even adds.  First up faith:  aside from my assuming having more boosts religious spread it doesn't seem to have any sort of use.  I can't spend it, it doesn't unlock anything or provide an direct buffs that I can tell.  And whether or not I am converting populations of other empires to my religion, upgrading the religion is based on the total number of followers, so you can't really push for upgrading it outside just pushing your growth rate, and that caps out.


As for the religion itself, as I mentioned it's pretty closely tied to grown which is already part of the victory condition, and the bonuses from the tenants give you fairly generic yield bonuses that can help the other aspects tied to earning fame, but religion itself is not part of the victory condition.  There are no era stars for having a certain number of followers or cites for your religion, and I didn't see any deeds related to converting other populations.  All in all, it basically just seems to be another way to provide some passive buffs, and there's not much interaction besides build holy sites, occasionally pick new buffs.  There's not much actual gameplay beyond letting the counter tick.  CIvics at least there's some stuff there where the bonuses are varied and aren't JUST more yields, and there's the balancing act between picking civics and event choices that provide good bonuses, and shifting your ideology toward or away from the bonuses you want.


There's also a bit of confusion for me with regards to holy sites.  Every time you upgrade your religion, you get +1 to maximum number of holy sites, but sometimes I can't build another.  I am not sure if that's because another empire has adopted my religion and their holy sites are being counted, or if it's counting the holy site wonders against the limit.  Either way, it's a bit opaque and surprising when it happens, and if it IS counting other empires' holy sites, that's kind of detrimental since there's districts you can build that gain bonuses from being next to holy sites, and holy sites on their own being able to be placed anywhere open up building opportunities away from the city center.


Also the initial choice of religious tenants is ever more bare than the generic FIMS options of the upgrades.  Two choices between faith or influence on holy sites, no other bonuses.  When you upgrade you can choose a new named religion (Zoroastrianism, Christianity, etc.), but those don't appear to have any effect beyond changing the model of any new holy sites.  it would be nice to have more choices at the start and have more options for starter bonuses, and the later choice to change the religion should have an effect as well to change the bonuses


Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 27, 2020, 10:29:56 AM

Sadly, I concur with many of these comments. I was hoping the religion system would be a little more than just get some faith-producing Quarters/Wonders and then.... wait? As it stands it feels almost like that South Park Meme:


1. Create Religion 

2. Build Holy Site 

3. ... 

4. Profit? 


As it stands, it is entirely unclear/opaque what the value of 1 faith vs. 2 faith vs. 5 faith is. How much faith is enough before you should stop worrying about it? How does Faith lead to Followers? Followers is the important metric, but the mechanism for getting from Faith to Followers is unclear. Is it stepwise (like Food -> Population) or is it linear (Like Science -> Technology progress)? Similarly, the Religion lense of the map doesn't have all that much information that feels useful/obvious at first glance. 


Moreover, I would love the Tenents system to be more than just "Gain X resource per follower", as it feels like just a tacked-on system. Maybe something like "Territories following this religion provide +X yield to Y Terrain type, but -A yield to B Terrain type" (where X is larger than A, making it a more interesting/strategic choice). This could allow people to make, say, settling cities in the very North/South of maps more viable. 


For example, A Tenent labelled, say, "Ice Goddess" or "Snow God" could make all cold terrain types provide +3 food, but all rivers would get -1 food. Or  A Tenant labelled "God of the Open Sea" which would mean that ocean tiles become workable, and provide +2 food and gold... but coast gets -1 food. This would make the tenants not only feel engaging, but also diversify possible play styles, and encourage people to actually grab the territories with more extreme terrain, and not make them feel as if they are a burden that still needs to be taken to reach expansionist stars.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 28, 2020, 8:02:32 PM
Dudette92 wrote:


For example, A Tenent labelled, say, "Ice Goddess" or "Snow God" could make all cold terrain types provide +3 food, but all rivers would get -1 food. Or  A Tenant labelled "God of the Open Sea" which would mean that ocean tiles become workable, and provide +2 food and gold... but coast gets -1 food. This would make the tenants not only feel engaging, but also diversify possible play styles, and encourage people to actually grab the territories with more extreme terrain, and not make them feel as if they are a burden that still needs to be taken to reach expansionist stars.

I love your Tenent Idea for the ecnomic side, as your people will specialize in an terrain type, but will be worse in others. This buffs tall civs more then wide civs. As an religion it is horrible as it can be pushed upon you. 

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 29, 2020, 6:25:11 PM

I feel right now, Religion has biggest untapped potential of revealed features in Humankind. I was bit dissapointed by simplicity of Religion in Stadia OpenDev and felt Devs did a good job between the builds that improved the Religion to an extent.


Overall, Religion suffers from giving too much invisible power while feeling like it is not even there, feeling unipactful. Biggest part comes from the fact, that it is on itself rather abstract - both in real life and in Humankind. What feels good and flavourful are Tenets and Holy Sites.


Holy Sites are easiest way to interact with Religion, as they are visible on the world map. My only problem with them is that they don't feel really that much impactful or distinct from the artistical perspective. They are mostly really small and average looking considering they are most sacred places. Greater variety of their design (and simply bigger structures) with some visual flair that would pinpoint them as important features on the map would be great. Right now, things like Strategics have this sparkly flair that marks them, so something similar (like crowds of people with various accesories - lampions, ribbons and flags etc.) would be a way to make them like a true Places of Interest and Pillgrimage.

Another small thing I feel could be changed for better is the "Obelisk" of Polytheism Holy Site - right now, it looks nothing like advertised in the picture and having quite good knowledge of many Earthly religions, I have never seen any structure similar to that - which is weird choice, as simple Obelisk has really distinct and easily recognizable shapes - it might be to avoid confusion with Great Obelisk of Aksumites?


Most importantly, I had to ask one of the VIPs how to change the "Holy Site" to one of other Religions (i.e. Buddhism, Islam), as that feature is almost invisible. That brings me to another point - UI of the Religion.


Compared to other features like Civics and Technology Tree, UI of Religion screen is rather simple and kinda breaks the immersion - here I see most of the space for improving the Religious experience. Giving Religion Tenet screen distinct layout and colours could work, as well as some flavourful art for each of the Tenets. As mentioned above, chosing new Holy Sites could be highlighted to make it more noticeable.


Real-life Religions as of right now are purely aesthetic choice for the Religion - I understand, that Religious differentiation is meant to be made by Tenets, so it could be easier if all possible Holy Sites were displayed at once above or bellow the Tenets and player would be given choice to "Choose a new Tenet and as a bonus, you can build this awesome unique Holy Site, if you want!".


Speaking of Tenets, I really like the flavour of most of them, but I agree there could be more variety to them - both to the flavour and mechanics they bring (we need "Do not eat meat" Tenet!).

Mechanicaly, Tenets are the source of the invisible power I mentioned at the beginning. Their effects seem to be quite on the strong side, but for most of the time, they go unnoticed. As with other features, my choices of Tenets were done mostly for their flavour and role-play effects, so I did not optimize them, but there is sleeping tiger in there, ready to be exploited.


Lastly, as with most of the Religion, Religious map offers very little besides showing which territories follow which Religion. Most of the process of Faith generation and spreading goes behind the curtain, which is to an extent part of the elusiveness of the Religious subject as a whole (it helps it is not outright connected to Era Stars, as it feels easier to accept I, as a player, don't have direct control over it) - I like that there is room for obscurity and mystery, but I still feel there could be more ways for players to interact with the Religion - both through access to mechanics that would interact with it and by having Religion more intertwined with the rest of gameplay (by the events and something akin Cultural Osmosis).


Phew, another load of impressions off my back. Cheers!

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4 years ago
Dec 29, 2020, 6:49:23 PM

Religion suffers from being mechanically powerful, with the right tenants, but it's also quite boring. First of all Faith as the main religious resource is fine, generate faith to gain more followers that's fine. The problem is a lack of information and options, we can check follower count and the amount of faith cities produce, but there's no information on conversion rate or even what a breakdown of what is producing faith in a city, like FIMS get. The tenants themselves are unbalanced but potentially very strong, making religion a worthwhile path to go for, those being the increase in x per population rather than territory. If you go wide and build a city per territory, the amount of citizens you receive skyrockets, making these tenants supremely powerful in comparison to the territory based ones which need to be much stronger. There's also the issue of the rewards all being 1-1 with each other which is not the case, 1 food is not the same as 1 production but that's another case.

Religion also suffers from holy sites being the main form of interactivity, there's not much thought to be had aside from where to place them initially, and also any faith producing structures. If religion borrowed a bit from civics and had its own set of choice events that'd already be a great start, but as of right now it's simply have more faith, get big bonuses. An administrative system or some form of internal management of your religion, and in some cases another person's religion would go a long way.

Religious combat is also very dull, with the only available action being inquisitions that you have to unlock, or wasting a 4th level tenant to make your religion more capable at converting others. There should be some more active measures for this system, even a producible priest unit would be a huge increase to the complexity of religious warfare by allowing targeted conversions of specific areas, thus having their faith producing buildings work against them, as just one example. The fact emblematic units get bonuses related to religion but you can't use any particular target conversion or acceptance of another religion is a wasted opportunity.

Overall religion is very powerful mechanically due to the bonuses it gives, but is very binary and dull to play with due to its simplicity and lack of feedback.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Dec 30, 2020, 1:20:47 PM
Lompeluiten wrote:
Dudette92 wrote:


For example, A Tenent labelled, say, "Ice Goddess" or "Snow God" could make all cold terrain types provide +3 food, but all rivers would get -1 food. Or  A Tenant labelled "God of the Open Sea" which would mean that ocean tiles become workable, and provide +2 food and gold... but coast gets -1 food. This would make the tenants not only feel engaging, but also diversify possible play styles, and encourage people to actually grab the territories with more extreme terrain, and not make them feel as if they are a burden that still needs to be taken to reach expansionist stars.

I love your Tenent Idea for the ecnomic side, as your people will specialize in an terrain type, but will be worse in others. This buffs tall civs more then wide civs. As an religion it is horrible as it can be pushed upon you. 

I think having a tenet benefit one type of terrain/district/specialist, etc.is really good... but it should not give a penalty (for the above mentioned reason)


There definitely needs to be more information on what is happening AND, something to do besides building Holy sites/religious districts [there is some of that with the later Heresies and Purges and such....but being able to focus on it seems like a good idea as well] 

Updated 4 years ago.
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