I like this idea a lot. Have each IP, once assimilated/conquered, turn into a special district in that territory - the IP's "Emblematic Quarter" of sorts. Maybe a EQ design for peaceful IPs and another for Agressive IPs? I think it would be better if there were a dozen or so "special IP EQs" and they varied from game to game, but I feel like it would be to late for that pre-launch.
IP's new cities are too easy to capture. It is a clear abuse that must be fixed. When their outpost becames a city they have 0 population and don't have militia, so you can get this city for free just with 1 scout literally. You just need to wait for their army moves too far from city, that's all.
In other aspects they are pretty good in my opinion.
I want to share an episode that happened to me because it sheds more light on the IP.
I was discovering and settling the New Continent, starting from north. Since I found it empty I fanned out my units, exploring and taking land after i founded my first city there. I had just obtained my third city in the continent when I was notified that my first city was under siege! I quickly jumped there and found that, out of the blue, an Independent (Visigoths) has attacked me. I looked at the situation and they were inferior in number and quality, I could have stormed out of the city and chased them but decided not to take any risk so I accepted the siege and started moving in my dispersed troops. Well, after 2 turn their forces, having grown with new units, assaulted my city and took it in an automatic resolution battle. I was really startled, then it took me a few turns to form an army (not wanting to deplete my young cities) and take the city back. While attacking them I found out they defended, beside militia, with a stack of regular troops and a stack of mercenaries (both the same composition).
Now, I think the episode was quite instructive and also enjoyable. I still wonder where they came from and why I didn't notice them, but it was all quite realistic for the time. Kudos to the dev for pulling such tricks. The only thing I didn't appreciate is to have their assault auto-resolved, I imagine they were far superior but it was a blind event.
Btw, in the meantime I noticed another of my new cities had a strange, yellowish and hollow, horned helm symbol on her, identical to the grey one over my captured city. Could that be a warning of impending attack? Anyway it disappeared after a few turns.
I barely noticed them, having two independent groups in my first run and one in my second. In the first run, I found them both on an island after nearly circling the globe, and immediately paid tons of money to assimilate them. On my second run, I found one nearby my starting position and ended up attacking them to conquer the space. All in all, they felt pretty rare and mostly useless. They may need some tweaking in terms of strength to discourage larger empires from immediately overrunning them. I like the idea of independent people, but in the end they were a very minor nuisance/opportunity (depending on where I found them).
- I only used the assimilation mechanic though and I think it was way too easy.
- I think cultural and religious domination should matter more. If another culture dominates the IP I should get penalties for assimilation and vice versa. Same with religion
- The steps in between 0 and 100 Percent assimilation should be clear: I tried to levy armies of IP (just for fun) and didn't manage to do so. Maybe trade options etc.
- The cultural difference didn't seem to matter at all. This should be much more of a factor.
I'd like to see more independent people, and their military power should be equal to major factions. They will disappear anyway, either passively or through absorption, so better to make them count. They also serve as great buffer between major factions and give better reason to pick military affinity cultures.
After I realized you could always assimilate an independent culture by attacking them I never spent influence on constructing cities again. Before the issue is never spending any influence or money and just assimilating them when they start to decline, which should be removed by the way. Now It proved to be far more effective to take over the rather weak independents and use their city. I like that their units tend to be heavy cavalry and archers, but they need to have more units to properly defend themselves. I'd also allow them to retake their city so you aren't safe simply gunning straight for it, and leaving the independent units to wander aimlessly.
A more complete feedback from my end after two playthroughs (one on hard, one on very hard). An avid CIV player, I cannot not benchmark Humankind against it.
Overall
I much prefer independent peoples to CIV's city states and barbarians. Even after CIV VI's latest free content update, Humankind succeeds in making IP feel like an integral gameplay element.
the different personality types are great (passive, aggressive, ...).
I like how IP start out with outposts just like NPCs do.
dumping money or influence into IP in order to get them to your side feels too easy. Cultural traits are mentioned and displayed but not as impactful as assumed at first glance.
greatly enjoyed how IP entanglement played into diplomacy as well.
I like how you can't just buy any which unit you fancy (some are locked to IP defence, which makes sense).
not sure if I'm a fan of the whole "in decline" mechanic. Feels out of place. In board game terms: it's like SmallWorld, but you would not choose a new race after the old one went into decline.
Feedback
much like in CIV, IP are too easily overrun by force. Consider buffing the upgrade time from outpost to city, and from city to walled city.
IP unit spawn rate seems too low, aggravating the above issue.
allied IP should join in on wars with common enemies.
IP should trade with you, which should improve the relationship ticker as well.
Ok first I need to mention I barely interacted at all with IP, because the free territories really did not stay free for a very long time. I bought an IP city once though, because they were in my extension way. I felt that:
1) There are not enough incentives to strengthen your relations with them: maybe make gaining influence over them slower (maybe make influence over them decrease if you do not interact enough with them?), but with bigger rewards?
2) Being able to assimilate them at any time made them really something I could just ignore. I assume that the zenith mechanic is not working as intended and that they are supposed to be assimilable only when in decline. At least that way they would be more fun and more difficult to just buy and forget.
3) I think they should remain pretty weak to military invasions, but protected by soft power, like if conquering them gave grievances for empires with some quantity of influence over them, has a stability hit over your population if you have the same ideology as the IP, or lose a lot of influence over other IP that had similar ideologies (even make pacific ones agressive?)
I don't know which of these solutions are or are not in the game, but I wanted to share what I though when reading this thread.
I am glad to see that Independent Peoples are building more armies and more districts in their territories, though they could still do more on either end. I am also glad they weren't a flash in the pan and stuck around for a bit!
Except for in one instance, throughout my several playthroughs in Victor, even the Hostile IPs rarely bothered me, which is unfortunate, because I feel like the role of the Hostile IPs, especially during the early game, should be to attack isolated armies that they can defeat and ransack unprotected districts and the like. I know this isn't for everyone, so maybe aggressive IPs should be a slider before starting a new campaign. That said, in one instance when I was on the “unclaimed” continent, I had a few good battles against the Bretons, who were at a nearly comparable tech level with me and were starting to muster their forces in the direction of my new city. It was fun, because what I thought was going just to be three knights roaming the continent and claiming territories turned into me needing to regroup, hire an army from the city I had founded there, and then engaging in a series of battles with them before I took their city. It was definitely what I want to see more of when fighting Independent Peopes.
I did end up hiring mercenaries from an IP once, but it was just two units that were behind in the tech tree a bit. They weren't useless, but not too impactful either, and that could be improved on. Perhaps one thing that could be done is allowing us to merge mercenary units if they come from the same IP. As far as them being behind on the tech tree though, that could be improved on with the era pacing slowed down a bit.
I still wish there were more diplomacy options with IP. Having the option to vassalize them after conquering their city could be cool, as well as having all the trade options and the like that you can negotiate with fully fledged empires. I also still want there to be some counterplay options to a rival empire attempting to assimilate an IP that you have an equal level of patronage over (especially if you want to make use of the Mauryan's LT!), such as a three-turn delay on assimilating IPs with other patrons, during which time the other patron can spend influence to assimilate them instead or support their independence, and it could go back and forth as a test of who wants it more. There should also be a limit on the number of times you can praise or bribe an IP per turn, so that you can't pump up your relations with them too high too quickly.
I also wish they had more personality than simply being hostile or peaceful. Back in the Lucy OpenDev I remember seeing some suggestions that they could spawn as Warriors, Pastoralists, Merchants, or whatnot with certain cultures only spawning in areas with horses and then favoring sending out as many horsemen as they can, or some favoring the coast and building fleets to ransack and harass you. Just a little something to add some personality to each IP could go a long way.
However I think it could be interesting to have them producing their own influence, its weird to see some decent cities being converted so easily. It doesnt have to expand beyogn their borders but having their own defensive influene would make it not a free convert
Also my opinion from them had +3 every turn but it didnt tell me why, I'm assuming because hey were under my influence
IP were still hard to differentiate, if they could get their own color (or shades at least) it would be easier than clicking on each army to find their city
Itcould be interesting to have more interaction, such as getting a tribute from IP instead of annexing them, as annexing them might get you over city cap and be better to be under your influence more indirectly. Maybe also allowing to prevent them to be annexed by others if I don't want to annex them but keep them as buffer territory
I like how IP (Independent People) work in Victor overall. At least, Devs got most of core mechanics down. However, there are a couple of things that can be improved further.
1. Give players ability to permanently make IP vassals of their Empires - Sometimes, we do not want them to slowly fade away especially when we liberate them from our own Empire lands. There should also be an option to FREE those IP from vassalisation too, if we wish to see them gone.
2. Make Trade UI with IP more obvious - Transparent UI is good, but I did have a hard time trying to identify where trade menu of IP was.
3. Make IP units that wander around the map to be slightly more in variety - Out of many games, I saw Chariots and Archer group a lot. I did see mercenary group few times (2 Spearmen & 2 Archers group) too, but more frequent variation would be welcome. Also, it would be good if they do upgrade their units over time too to keep up with Era progression.
4. More Varitety of IPs on top of Peaceful & Violent - You got the basics of IP archetypes down. I know some people wish for more variety of IP. I also do too, but these sort of additions could be done later down the line maybe after launch date. But please do consider making them to have more variety and bonus effects like how we have 7 theme of cultures.
5. Razing IP Cities Decision upon Capturing - There are times when players do not wish to keep IP cities in certain location. So please add the option to instantly raze those cities after capture or make it only 1 turn to raze them. I know we can ransack our own cities in game too, but this standard method takes way too long.
I like the idea of keeping IPs around as vassals. I think such a system worked really well in AoW III and could be adopted quite nicely. Where you hit your cities cap (and the penalty for going successively beyond is increasingly harsh), it could be a good alternative to exercise a different form of control. More generally, I think there need to be more benefits for keeping IP cities around. From what I understood, even at full relationship levels, you don't actually "get" anything. No portion of their money or science output. Sure, you can buy their resources, but you cando that for many major empires too. You can hire mercenaries which could be situationally nice. But something special. Or maybe something unique, like a slightly more powerful version of a unit or a special civic.
What about their cities spawning with 0 population making them free cities to capture? I'm always thinking about taking those free cities or not because it feels like cheating. How about letting these citites spawn with 1 or 2 pop so it is not a free take with just a scout. Make us bring some troops.
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