OK, here we go again. Denuvo, after all we've been through with Denuvo in Humankind... 

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

Now, to briefly address the elephant in the room here:

Khaar wrote:

The Steam page says that the game uses Denuvo as DRM. Is this true?

Is Denuvo already included in the OpenDev?

And do we really have to go through all this again after almost everyone clearly said that we don't want this in Humankind? 

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As far as I have been told, one of the big problems we had with Denuvo in Humankind was that it was integrated too late, so we would not have had the time to fine-tune it to minimize any performance impact. So with Endless Dungeon, we want to start testing it much sooner.

But I understand that many players feel strongly about DRM and Denuvo in particular, so I would only ask you to please present these concerns in their own dedicated thread.

I couldn't believe it. We've been through all of this already with Humankind: Denuvo in Humankind

Back then, countless people expressed their concerns about Denuvo and that they didn't want it in the game. A lot of people (including me) said that they will NOT buy the game if it comes with Denuvo. After many, many threads in this forum and on the Steam Cummintyhub we finally got the statement from Amplitude that they will drop Denuvo. And the reaction both from players and from the international media was overwhelmingly positive!

And yet, here we are again at the same point: Denuvo will be in Endless Dungeon.

The concerns are still the same. Denuvo WILL have a bad impact on the performance: 

Khaar wrote:

New Kotaku article about Resident Evil Village: Denuvo causes stuttering when the player kills a zombie and slows down performance. A cracked version of the game without DRM fixed the issues.

Tekken 7 Director Says: Denuvo DRM is Causing Performance Issues in the Game.

ExtremeTech tested games that had Denuvo removed and compared them to the version with Denuvo: Every tested games was slowed down by Denuvo.

Gaming Route article: Doom Eternal is unplayable on PC due to the Denuvo update

Gaming Route wrote:

“Constant, massive stuttering, Horrendous screen tearing despite having G-Sync, Locks 120Hz display at 60Hz, both in-game and on the Windows desktop.”

“ID software even told people how to uninstall Denuvo, but it installs again whenever people try to launch the game. ”

Benchmarks by Overlord Gaming: Performance & Loading Times tested before & after games dropped Denuvo

Also modding will be affected:

CaptainCobbs wrote:

With Denuvo it'll make something like ELCP much much harder to make. Modding is heavily affected by anti tamper.

Back then Amplitude explained to us that they hope Denuvo can protect sales after the release, even if just for a couple of days.

On the other side, SpaceTroll (Romain de Waubert de Genlis, CCO & Studio Head) told us after the release about how well the game sold at lunch and how happy they are:

SpaceTroll wrote:

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What a journey! What a launch!

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If you are curious about it, we have beaten all our records in prerelease wishlisting (from far far away, beyond the 1 million mark), in preorders, in day 1 sales...

So Denuvo clearly isn't necessary for selling a game, but making a good one is.

The reality is that people who want to pirate a game WILL pirate the game. The difference with Denuvo is just that they have to wait a week longer. In other words, you don't generate more sales with Denuvo! Pirates are more than willing to wait a bit longer for a pirated version.

So the final question here is the same as it was with Humankind:

Why do you want to PUNISH your paying customers with an OBJECTIVELY WORSE version of the game?

It is crazy to think about that people with a pirated version will have a much smoother experience and better performance thanks to lower hardware requirements. That's nuts!

Amplitude, I'm begging you just as I did back then with Humankind:

PLEASE REMOVE DENUVO FROM ENDLESS DUNGEON

Sincerely, Khaar.

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UPDATE: Time for a conclusion

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SpikedWallMan wrote:

But I will reiterate what I would consider the "golden rule" of game development when it comes to piracy - "do not let pirates provide a better experience to your paying customers than the experience that you provide yourself."  If your game's DRM can lock people out of playing it because of DRM issues, then it's a worse experience than the pirates are providing.  Please don't promote piracy by making life worse for those who are paying for your product.

Amen! I agree one hundred percent!

And to make things worse, Denuvo actually went down 7-8 months ago, breaking a crapton of games, and whiles its back up, there is no guarantee that Denuvo wil not go down again. It is also worth mentioning that Denuvo is seen by many as potential malware, as its a Kernel level program and is a huge privacy concern to players. These are issues that you cant simply fine-tune away.

DragonGaming wrote:

 It is also worth mentioning that Denuvo is seen by many as potential malware, as its a Kernel level program and is a huge privacy concern to players.

Just want to add some technical clarification here.

You're talking about the Denuvo anti-cheat. Every anti-cheats on the market operate like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer. TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one. 

What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's not a software, it's not something installed on your computer. It's just some checks made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did buy the game. 

Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all time, or even the Denuvo server to be online. You'll be able to play offline. 

Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;) 

Astamarr wrote:

What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's not a software, it's not something installed on your computer. It's just some checks made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did buy the game. 

Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all time, or even the Denuvo server to be online. You'll be able to play offline. 

Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;) 

I appreciate your technical explanation and concern here, but the truth is that these issues aren't going to be a problem for people running a cracked copy - only for those who paid you for a legit copy.  So at that point, why hassle us just because we gave you our money?  Also, you are technically correct that you don't have be online all the time, but the fact is that you'll need to connect to a Denuvo server at some point. If you need to refresh your authorization, but the Denuvo servers are offline temporarily (or forever) or you are without an internet connection, then you're out of luck. Is Amplitude/Sega prepared to guarantee 100% uptime for Denuvo servers and provide refunds when the game becomes unplayable because Denuvo goes defunct? (Of course, the answer is most likely "no" since I have other games that are unplayable without a crack thanks to defunct DRM, and it is very, very rare for a developer to care when this happens for an older game and publish a DRM-free patch.) So to be honest, the mere inclusion of Denuvo is a downside that cannot be mitigated.

(And just as a disclaimer, I am not trying to personally place blame on you or any other specific person for the decision to include Denuvo.  Just sharing my opinion from my viewpoint as a customer.)

As a developer you need to ask yourself what are YOUR benefits from such an invasive DRM like Denuvo? The ONLY answer is to protect the game from piracy.

What is the benefit for us as players? Only answer: None!

The thing is though, no DRM can protect a game from piracy, it can only delay it a bit!

Then, once a crack is available your fancy DRM is completely useless and while pirates don't have to hustle with it, your customers have to deal with it.

@Astamarr

By the way: Is Denuvo already integrated in the OpenDev beta? 

Astamarr wrote:

Khaar wrote:

The thing is tough, no DRM can protect a game from piracy, it can only delay it a bit!

Then, once a crack is available your fancy DRM is completely useless and while pirates don't have to hustle with it, your customers have to deal with it.

Of course, that's something we have well in mind.

By the way: Is Denuvo already integrated in the OpenDev beta? 

Yes, it is. 

so with that in mind, is this going to be a launch only thing, where it will stick around to safegaurd the first 2 or 3 weeks before being removed to improve the game?

Thanks for the thread. I don't understand developers punishing their customers with this buggy software. There is no point in it, only the buyers suffer. Devs, please, remove Denuvo from the game. I will wait for that before buying the game.