Well, if you look at Galactic Civ, you can create your own ships design with hundreds of pieces.



And its how Galactiv Civ became a Legend...

I personally agree that being able to redesign the overall appearance of your troops is important and just a weapon swap would not work. However a lot of people are arguing that we need to represent each individual armor piece on a unit. At this point, that is just silly, but to implement some minimalistic version? Look at Dawn Of War 2, ya it is a RTS game, but their units tend not to show off any armor upgrades (though most units do lack them) instead, they allow an army painting system in which you have multiple skins from all the various sub-factions in your race. Using a similar concept would benefit the game in 3 ways, 1: we get our visual customization without overworking the Devs, 2: It would add to the lore because we now have sub-factions at least for appearances, so even if no canon lore is added, the fans shall play , 3: The Devs could sell skin packs, cheap way to get some cash, but its nice to have a special skin from paying just that little extra as well, maybe even add achievement based skins. Overall, I would enjoy skin packs greatly, as they provide many benefits with fewer resources.

Kingsguard wrote:
Let me laugh, I dont wanna compare but sorry, thats a truth, AOW3 count more than 15 "minor factions" units (Giants ALONE got 5 units) and Heroes are fully customizable, and dont talk about item crafting !



In my opinion, The Visual Armor Representation would be THE ELEMENT WHICH MAKE THE DIFFERENCE AGAINST THE OTHERS 4X FOR YEARS...



Devs have to do something about it.

I have never played AoW3, but I recall that even AoW2 had massive unit variety.



Now, I have no idea about the file structure of the game outside of the xml. I don't know how the game reads its graphical assets. But I know that some sort of color mask has to be already implemented in te engine to get the faction colors onto the units. As such, I have use my limited (read: non-existent) image manipulation abilities to illustrate my point about visual unit customization that may be manageable:







It's just a pretty lousy re-color, but I think it illustrates the idea that many units could have a "texture mask" applied to them quite well. If I had the ability to actually slap Titanium and Glassteel textures on those areas, the "armor customization" would be a lot more noticeable, and look a heck of a lot better. This approach would not destroy the distinct silhouettes of the different units, either, which are a crucial part of the aesthetic of the game and each faction (and aesthetics and art style are even more important than graphical fidelity).

Hopefully it would be reasonably easy to achieve as well. Perhaps somebody with better knowledge of programming and graphical assets should poke the game a little and figure out how difficult this would be.

Hmmm... Maybe the problem isn't so much that there should be more units, but rather more faction skins, like the special Vaulter skin for DotE owners ? Only those would be freely available, even if they would come later, post-release.



Also maybe there should be a late-game technology that would allow to improve one of the minor factions already integrated to the empire so that they give a second unit ?

drewwest wrote:
They have... with the weapons... There will nearly be 240 full rendered 3D weapons in game. Aow3 and warlock doesn't offer even this. E:FE only could because all of the units are human..

In those game, you have 2 or 3 times more differents units....



I agree with The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales, the game will get a very bad point on Customization;



In fact, Im disapointed cause when I saw the feature and the pictures, I thought we could already customize our units with visual changes. And In fact, its why I bought EL ^^



And I will not be the only one disapointed. Sadly, the reviewers and the medias might use that weakness againt EL...



Weapons are nothing drewwest, you talk for a lost cause....



Im sorry, the point of view: "EL doesnt need armor visual changes" is undefendable.



About the Market Rivalry, EL will be known as "the game with 4 units by Factions", thats not conceivable...



I already can see the EL fans coming to hang me : "And what about all the 15 Minor Faction and the Heroes !"



Let me laugh, I dont wanna compare but sorry, thats a truth, AOW3 count more than 15 "minor factions" units (Giants ALONE got 5 units) and Heroes are fully customizable, and dont talk about item crafting !



In my opinion, The Visual Armor Representation would be THE ELEMENT WHICH MAKE THE DIFFERENCE AGAINST THE OTHERS 4X FOR YEARS...



Devs have to do something about it.

They have... with the weapons... There will nearly be 240 full rendered 3D weapons in game. Aow3 and warlock doesn't offer even this. E:FE only could because all of the units are human..

I've been thinking a lot about this issue, and the whole discussion worries me greatly.

I agree with everybody who says that the devs simply do not have the time and money to create enough assets to display the armor customization properly.

However, we also have to keep in mind that, unfortunately, presentation plays a massive role in the initial reception of a title. How many players will just put the game down when armor upgrades don't show any changes? And worse, how many reviewers of big gaming media outlets will bring it up as a negative point, and thus hurt sales?



The monumental task of creating this many 3d models is of course out of the question. But I do hope that the devs might consider some cost- and time-efficient way to show some of the customization, like a texture/color map on the gear so that more and more of the relevant material will be visible on the unit, which would drastically cut down the number of required assets (three or four masks per slot, so 9 to 12 masks per unit, as a 2D texture rather than a 3d mesh, by my guess.)



I'd hate to see a game with so much potential suffer simply because it can not please the wide-spread obsession with style over substance.

Good "morning' guys,



First, Vieuxchat. Customization in Galactic Civ is awesome (And all the rest, its a cult game man !), If you dont like customization, thats your problem. And its not useless ! Its a reward for the hours past to play when you finally get the tech to get a new huge ships and you have an event which say : "You buildt the fatest space ship of the Galaxy", its a feel of Immersion.



Well, I am a RPG player and what is the most important in a RPG ? Immersion ! And how to create that immersion ? Visual stuff offcourse ! (with a good scenario, obviously)

EL is NOT a RPG but IT IS AN IMMERSIVE UNIVERSE. But those Clones Armies break the immersion. Cant stand to fight againt the same faction as me its... a lack of good sense !



Then, Drewwest.



Dunno if you read the what I said in the first pages but I DONT ASK FOR 1512 3D ASSETS



I said :

I dont ask for a total visual change for each item but ATLEAST, one skin by tier, (for each special materials ?) for each major factions units. (not including the settlers and the 3rd units, only the 2 basic units)



So, 2 by factions = 16 skins by tier.

Tier one is done.

So 16x5 = 80



Plus more models if you make special ressources armor visual changes. (less important)



Well, it does 80 modified (not new) models. No so much compared to some other games.

Was an example. A little one, asking 80 modified assets.



I do think that only 63 models are simply... not enough at all !



When you look at some other games (I will not quote) were each factions have 10-14 differents units plus monsters on the map recruitable, sorry to denounce but that's much more !



Skyrim, the Witcher, and Dragon Age are RPG's offcourse, I wont a RPG-like customization for EL (even if one of the last fantasy 4X has a fantastic one...) but atleast, I wont fight clone armies !



I think its doable. Maybe releasing the game a bit late or even in some Free-DLCs but its doable.

I think, Kingsgaurd, you need to take a step back, and consider the enormity of what your demanding.



Currently we have 8 unit models (Settler, Militia, Three Heroes, Three Faction Units) for each of the 6 (soon to be eight) major factions. That in itself amounts to: 48 3D Models



I believe 15 Minor factions are planned so you can add 15 3D models to that figure, giving you a total of: 63 3D Models



Then we have six different weapon sets (with possibly two more to be released) these include spears, bows, sabres, shields, swords, two handed swords, axes, two handed axes, clubs, and crossbows; of which are rendered and visible on the models in 3D. Thats ten weapon types times by six which gives you: 60 3D weapons.



But wait! It doesn't stop there, because, there are three tiers for each of the weapon sets, so times that number by three: this gives your a total of 180 3D weapons. Not including the possible 60 that have yet to be released.



What your asking for is helmets, body armour, and lower body armour, rendered in 3D, that is visible on all of the 63 3D Unit Models; Unit models that differ in size, shape and general anatomy. Which would mean each unit would require their own visuals, this armour would after all need to fit onto the 3D model, to avoid looking horrendously ugly. However, there are three tiers for each of the 6 (maybe eight) armour sets. So that would mean the devs would have to create 24 3D assets, possibly for each and every unit. That gives you a grand sum of a possible 1512 3D assets the devs would have to create...



It is simply not doable. Whatsoever. I'm sorry to say.



Games like Skyrim, the Witcher, and Dragon Age, can enjoy this luxury because the 3D models are relatively the same. EL has 63 vastly different and diverse 3D models.



I think to save debate, the devs should just plain remove armour as an item and stick to weapons and accessories. Because the fact it doesn't appear on the units, seems to really break the immersion for some people



Like VieuzChat says its a case of 'Time and Money' and not even the biggest AAA game developing companies would attempt a task so massive, when it achieves so little...

But it's useless. In GalCiv, designing your own ships is only there for the "fun" or "ooomph" effect. The battle system of Galciv is bad, no matter how many customization you add to it (don't get me wrong, there's a lot of other things that GalCiv did right, like the AI and the karma. But the customization is useless)

On the other hand, the customization of FE is very interesting and very engaging. AND it has a gameplay effect.

And dev sold some more items/factions/things to customize through DLC. Maybe it's something that would lessens the "Money" issue. But not the "Time" one. And adding more dev would lessen the "Time" issue but worsen the "Money" one.

Nice idea The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales, your idea rejoin FullMetalRiku's one.



Yea, Dawn of War 1 and 2 had pretty interresting customizations system and in DOW2 but I think we also need different skins pack (themed/lore wise ?) for each units/factions but anyways we need more Visual changes and thats a point.



But still, only colorization would let me a bit disapointed. Models for each materials (1 model full armored titanium/glassteel etc...) at least for the release would be awesome. The player would be able to choose between if the unit wear atleast 1 armor item made with that material.



I have other ideas but I would like to hear the Devs....

I agree with Kingsguard.

I know it's purely a cosmetic thing and will not change the gameplay. However, I think a greater variation in the units looks would improve the experience of playing Endless Legend.

Maybe visuals change to each piece of equipment is asking too much. But what about if in every odd tier of armor the visual aspects of the unit changed? Or maybe if there were some technology that granted a evolved form of the unit (some bonus, visual upgrade, but the same "role")

I know that in Endless Space the modules doesn't changes the ships' graphics, but i really believe that in a game like Endless Legend this won't work well.

(sorry for the english, not my mother language)

Well, If I understood well, devs conclusion of this debate is : "The community want it BUT it wasnt planned and we havent enough time and money to do so".



Tell me If im wrong



Damn that's a sad end for a debate...

I dont really mind the armor but I would like more variety in minor faction troop type, too many seem to be melee.... The main visual part I find strange right now is the effects of ranged attacks and of melee impacts, they seem to be either too small to be noticed (Like the ardent mage hero) or to come out of nowhere like the ateshi zealots (I like their attack, but the bolt + hail effect is a little weird, pick one I say!). The melee impact on the other hand seem to have little weight, especially for units attaking with claws.

gefp wrote:
Hm, when I think about, it's like this:

- from dev's viewpoint, armor customization is a lot of purely cosmetic work - different models for each tier of every armor of every type for every unit of every faction. I agree that it's better to have good gameplay instead of pretty picture.

- from players viewpoint, we're forced to play with same 3 (4 with hero, 5 with militia) units visually - mercs and minors won't be backbone and meat of your faction's army - from start to finish. That's boring. At least in ES we had more ship types that were dispersed through whole tech tree instead of first two eras. In EL, there's no visual representation of your military-science achievements. And that's sad.

Maybe it would be good compromise to upgrade visual look of units when you go from one era to another? On one hand, it's less work for devs, on another - adds feeling of achievement for players. After all, armies become stronger and costier already.

*sorry for butchered English*

What you said is the truth. But it seems impossible to the eyes of the devs.



As said Mark Twain, "They didnt know that was impossible, so they did it."



Devs, you may inspire of this sentence

Maybe instead of just new skins why not the ability to change the color of the unit (a unit with titanium armor would have a blue tint) ?

Hm, when I think about, it's like this:

- from dev's viewpoint, armor customization is a lot of purely cosmetic work - different models for each tier of every armor of every type for every unit of every faction. I agree that it's better to have good gameplay instead of pretty picture.

- from players viewpoint, we're forced to play with same 3 (4 with hero, 5 with militia) units visually - mercs and minors won't be backbone and meat of your faction's army - from start to finish. That's boring. At least in ES we had more ship types that were dispersed through whole tech tree instead of first two eras. In EL, there's no visual representation of your military-science achievements. And that's sad.

Maybe it would be good compromise to upgrade visual look of units when you go from one era to another? On one hand, it's less work for devs, on another - adds feeling of achievement for players. After all, armies become stronger and costier already.

*sorry for butchered English*

It's worth the effort to have armor upgrades represented in the game. Even if those upgrades are only reskins of a factions primary units.



Visual feedback from upgrading is one of the joys of 4X.

Laquantus wrote:
I can 100% agree with you , changing like CIV5 ( i have it ) would be totally awesome , but it seems the devs can't add that in the moment ( be it money or time ) but i hope that after the game launch that they will be able to do that kind of change .



OBS : Do you guys know if in Age of wonder that same thing happens ( the units visual change) after each era ?

Nah, they don't. Though the Hero units in the game do (Although as the devs from Amplitude pointed out, all the Heroes in the game are humanoid, even the dragons). Also, it should be mentioned, Age of Wonder III (I assume you mean the newest one) doesn't have Eras. Basically, technologically speaking, everything is all of the same era, from the beginning of the game to the end. You simply have different "Tiers" of units (With later Tiers being more powerful and more expensive than earlier Tiers).



Don't interpret that as dismissal though, I absolutely adore Age of Wonder III, and I hold it as Endless Legend's primary competition, not Civilization V.

Same thing but less epic ! ^^