Zenicetus wrote:
No, it may only apply to outposts, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with proximity to the enemy. Unless we're talking about two different distance-from-empire penalties?



I have a new game started with a homeworld and three outposts. Two are at least 3 jumps from the enemy's zone of influence, and one is on the back side of my empire, behind my homeworld. All the outposts are showing that "distance from empire" tax penalty, even though the one at the rear is just one jump away from the homeworld. So it must just be a penalty for not being a full colony and under the home empire's influence yet? It would work better to constrain rapid expansion if it was a true distance penalty from the capital, as in the Total War games.

So instead of like a pesent revolt, would it be more like the system trying to become independent?

I also think the races are not different enough which seems weird when you look at the description: the differences should be _HUGE_

.. but then it hit me... Rapid Expansion is too powerful and there aren't enough things to discourage you from doing it.. so everybody plays REX which ofc makes everygame feel similar to the last one...let me explain with examples:

-> in the civ series you pay for every city you build and you pay more the further it is away from your capital (not to mention that your cities wont grow while building a settler) furthermore barbarians just wipe your cities if you leave them unprotected -> you wasted a lot of time to build a settler for no bonus.

-> in MoO II traveling distances are _severely_ limited at the start so only fast teching species can claim a good chunk of the galaxy without sacrificing everything else at start

... there are many more examples but i think my point is clear

in ES there is hardly anything that discourages you from expanding as quickly as you want.. to the best places available no matter how far away... so every race plays REX --> there is no real differentiation in playstyle.



If pirates would destroy system colonies or had a halfway decent way to claim them from the start it would discourage races with a weak military start from booming.. also upkeep payment for colonies (distance and number) would make people think if expanding is profitable right now...

and all those other little things that make people think if they should really take this system too or if it would be better to stick to the ones they already have for a little longer.

StK;33916- wrote:
> in the civ series you pay for every city you build and you pay more the further it is away from your capital

On this one point, note that there is a penalty to Dust production for systems that are located more "distant from Empire," which I think means your starting homeworld? Although it could be distance from established colony borders and only apply to outposts.... I haven't checked it lately. It's listed on the mouseover window when you hover over the Dust production for each system in the main empire stats screen.



So there is at least one form of that game mechanic in place. It could be tweaked to slow expansion, but that also depends on how easy it is to earn vs. spend Dust.

I didn't say there aren't any... I said there should be more.

Look at the 30 turn challenges (yey I'm a link) the amount of expansion going on in these is astonishing, but it is the only way to play if you want to stay on top.

If you want compare it to the first 30 turns of other 4X games I don't think you will see anything like it.

I realize this thread has evolved but I wanted to point out this suggestion I made for Race Specific Battle Actions as a way to further differentiate the races in a player active way: /#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13461-suggestion-racial-battle-actions

StK wrote:
I didn't say there aren't any... I said there should be more.

Look at the 30 turn challenges (yey I'm a link) the amount of expansion going on in these is astonishing, but it is the only way to play if you want to stay on top.

If you want compare it to the first 30 turns of other 4X games I don't think you will see anything like it.

I'm not so sure about that. There is a colony rush in GalCiv2 if you want to survive at the harder difficulty levels, at least on the medium to smaller maps (and note that the "30 Turn Challenge is on a small map). In Civ V, you have to grab enough territory in the early game to have a shot at the important resources like marble, horses, iron, etc. once you unlock them. In Total War games prior to the last one (Shogun 2) you had a strong incentive to quickly expand through neighboring neutral/rebel territory before coming up against the borders of the major factions.



It's partly a question of player style -- some people want to turtle, others like to steamroll the map. I'm somewhere in the middle, but most 4X games I've played have been designed so I have to consolidate my starting position fairly aggressively. Then I can kick back a little, negotiate treaties, trade, and think about the next phase.



It's that last part that's missing from the game right now, since diplomacy is still pretty weak. That encourages aggressive expansion because it's all you can do. However, I think it's always going to be important to expand quickly on a small map like the 30 turn challenge. That's just how small maps work.

Yes, another vote for that the factions should "feel" different as a gameplay experience.



In another thread I played around with an idea of actual craving for the cravers. As in they could for example have a turn-based craving counter, which could tick down, and they would have to settle a new planet by then or something bad happens. (I'm not sure how locust points work)



The Horatio's should be able to somehow clone themselves in order to fill the galaxy with Horatio. The hero cloning mechanic is nice, but it could be expanded somehow to other areas of the game as well. What about lesser Horatio-vassals?



What if the Sower player couldn't tell the other factions apart from each other?



Without going into more specific stuff, there are surely relatively easily implemented ways to affect the experience of playing a certain alien race without it breaking the core game.

@Zenicetus: In >this post< I show the differences of ES to other 4X games when it comes to expansion. You will note that ES makes expansion easier then every other 4X game I know.

And yes it is a design decision but I think REX shouldn't be the only valid strategy especially not for every faction.



Also as for Civ V i disagree with you (I was never a huge fan of GalCiv or the total war series so i simply don't know about them).

In Civ V there are civilizations for different playstyles.. India doesn't have to play REX .. and it shouldn't its benefits lie elsewhere (it can however play ICS (infinite city sprawl) but that is profoundly different to REX and a decision of the player because he can also just go for a few huge cities)

Japan for example doesn't play REX either.. they are insanely effective when using a warrior rush.

and so on and so forth...

And that's exactly my point.. different races (or nations in the case of Civ V) different playstyles... but in ES REX is so strong there is just no alternative.

Zenicetus wrote:
On this one point, note that there is a penalty to Dust production for systems that are located more "distant from Empire," which I think means your starting homeworld?

It's not. It's for your OUTPOST being 1 jump away from an enemy colony, or for the OUTPOST from being under the region of influence from an enemy colony (both can happen at the same time). It's a 25% penalty, after tax rate.

Draco18s wrote:
It's not. It's for your OUTPOST being 1 jump away from an enemy colony, or for the OUTPOST from being under the region of influence from an enemy colony (both can happen at the same time). It's a 25% penalty, after tax rate.

No, it may only apply to outposts, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with proximity to the enemy. Unless we're talking about two different distance-from-empire penalties?



I have a new game started with a homeworld and three outposts. Two are at least 3 jumps from the enemy's zone of influence, and one is on the back side of my empire, behind my homeworld. All the outposts are showing that "distance from empire" tax penalty, even though the one at the rear is just one jump away from the homeworld. So it must just be a penalty for not being a full colony and under the home empire's influence yet? It would work better to constrain rapid expansion if it was a true distance penalty from the capital, as in the Total War games.

stevenmc409 wrote:
My suggestion for race specific active abilities



Sophon:Collapse string/wormhole: self-explanatory

Pro:the puny Sophon can hide for the early-mid game

Con:it hampers the Sophons growth/exploration



Hissho: Ramming speed: (I'm think a card in battle) destroys ships in the Hissho fleet and converts their HP+Tonnage*X (X is a value that can be adjusted for balance purposes)

Pro: Allows the Hissho to do tremendous damage if they are lousing a battle or build cheap suicide fleets.

Con: They are lousing an entire fleet!



UE: Prosperity: trigger say 50 turns of increased FIDS followed by 50 turns of decreased FIDS

Pro: Like any capitalist society you make a lot of money, food ect. right now...

Con:but like all capitalist societies you base it on things like speculation, overvalued investments and currency exchanges witch ultimately lead to depressions.



Craver: Cannibalism: Sac Pop for sudden FIDS increases

Pro:When there is nothing else to eat then eat your people

Con: you're a monster and you lose population



Horatio:actually the current cloning ability works great I'm thinking expand it so you can buy population points.

Pro: Fast growth yay!!!!

Con: It costs how much???? (seriously your cloning million if not billions in less then a year that is going to cost a lot.)



Based on descriptions



Ameoba: Force cease fire

Pro: Suddenly ceases a war for X turns.

Con: Long cool down so be nice.



Sowers: Terraforming: Turn a world immediately to a certain planet type for a lot of Dust possibly growing each time this abilty is used

Pro: Lots of good planets

Con:Cost a lot and if you do it to a lot of planets you become a target (If you have 6 Terran worlds you are going to be a target)



That's what I'm thinking to make the races unique and it is easy to balance once implemented.

This seems to be really nice. Even if it think that one special makes them not different enough.

The also need Techs for their special and like 2 or three of this for each faction.

Igncom1 wrote:
So instead of like a pesent revolt, would it be more like the system trying to become independent?

I don't know if that would work for all empires though. It doesn't make sense for the Ameobas or the Sowers to have independent colonies. UE and Hissho for sure, Cravers and Sophons maybe.

Becuse of the hive mind thing?



Surly if heros can be indipendant, others can too.

Igncom1 wrote:
So instead of like a pesent revolt, would it be more like the system trying to become independent?

Something like that, yes. Not necessarily going for full independence, but a reduction in efficiency (tax income) or increase in general unrest, due to being further from the heart of the empire, with less news about what's happening, slower transmission of goods and services, etc. Also cultural changes that can happen when a distant colony is closer to another faction's empire than it is to their own capital. All of which would mean that an outpost or even a developed colony on the borderlands wouldn't be as efficient as one closer to the heart of empire.

MiburosWolf wrote:
I don't know if that would work for all empires though. It doesn't make sense for the Ameobas or the Sowers to have independent colonies. UE and Hissho for sure, Cravers and Sophons maybe.

Yes, it's something one would expect to be different for every alien race. It could be argued different ways, though. The Amoebas and Sowers might have a deeper malus with distance, because they like being closely linked. On the other hand, if they can evolve methods to stay linked in a group mind across interstellar distances ('ansible" FTL communication or whatever), then maybe they're more immune to any effect of being separated from the core of the empire. And speaking of ansibles, that's the kind of tech that could be researched to reduce the effect.

Zenicetus wrote:
Something like that, yes. Not necessarily going for full independence, but a reduction in efficiency (tax income) or increase in general unrest, due to being further from the heart of the empire, with less news about what's happening, slower transmission of goods and services, etc. Also cultural changes that can happen when a distant colony is closer to another faction's empire than it is to their own capital. All of which would mean that an outpost or even a developed colony on the borderlands wouldn't be as efficient as one closer to the heart of empire.

Why not full independence? if they can, why wouldn't they?

I do hope they add more variety to the races, or at least allow us to when we can create our own race!



I want to make a race that excels at defence and technology but has a very low attack power and invasion power. So say 50% bonus to defence and attack if the ships are in a home system but -50% attack and defence if in an unowned system or invading.

When it comes to the expansion, they could add a refueling requirement like Pax Imperia Eminent Domain.



In that game, you start off with star drives (which let you travel through wormholes, which link each system together) that have a fuel value of 2 points. Every time the ship passes through a wormhole, one point is used up. It doesn't let you use up all your fuel if your desination is a system that does not let you refuel (i.e. a system you own, or a system owned by another empire who you have refueling rights with). Therefore, at the early game, you have to colonise planets in adjacent systems in order to spread out futher.



The beauty of this system is there are technologies that increase fuel capacity to a maximum of 8. Not only that, but there are different star drives for different ship sizes, but I think ES would be better without that.



Another thing I think that would make each species play differently would be a different affinity to a different type of ship.



For instance, Imperials prefer a balanced fleet. They get a bonus with multiple ship classes. Cravers prefer numbers, so get a bonus with more smaller ships. Sophon are pacifists so they get a bonus for using defensive ship classes. Hissho are aggressive, so they get a bonus for using offensive ship classes. Horatio prefer everything to be the same, so they should get a bonus for a fleet made up of all the same ship type. One of the remaining 3 races (depends on what the 8th race does) will prefer larger ships - if the 8rd race isn't suitable, then Sowers would be instead. Without that race determined, it would be hard to consider what the other bonus would be. And as for the Amoeba, I really can't think of anything right now.

Photon_Ventdesdunes wrote:
It's already the locust ability of Cravers.

Just some thoghts the difrence is that you can control when you activate this abilty and it eventually goes away (unlike Locust Points).

Virus wrote:
This seems to be really nice. Even if it think that one special makes them not different enough.

The also need Techs for their special and like 2 or three of this for each faction.

This is just some Ideas of abilities I agree more can be done to differentiate the races but based upon the Horatio Clone ability I think they are going to put in abilities like these for each faction

One good way to make races play differently is to give them really powerful abilities with a downside, As a pretty good example Civ 5's India, they have half unhappiness from population (this is an insane advantage) but they gain double unhappiness from the amount of cities, this makes spreading like cancer impossible while making VERY BIG CITIES possible, sadly India is basically the only faction that plays really differently in Civ 5.



also u must always think about balance, boosting the current % is pretty much a no no, because that would cause some maybe unwanted effects, like doubling the effects would lead to sophons with about 100% tech increase so they would win any game that would go long enough(soooo muuuuch teeeechh..) on the other hand boosting hisho's abilities anymore would make them unstoppable when they rush at you early game.(i think they might be slightly op at the moment too when playing small galaxies.)