This of course is also exemplified by SotS with the locomotion differences. Playing as the Hivers, Zuuhl or Mogiri is a completely different experience from playing as the others who were a bit too much alike(Tarkas and Humans use the exact same locomotion and the Liir just put a slight twist on that. MoO, GalCic, and Lost Empire are good examples of titles with varied races with there own niches as well.

I agree it should be bigger differences, but maybe only take the ones we already have and amplify them.

I agree with the OP. However, I don't think amplifying a percent bonus makes it more interesting. For example, Hissho have +40% damage and -20% science, while Sophons have +40% science. These differences have a real effect; but I don't *play* these any differently. The OP is suggesting *rules* differences for the different races. This could be done with race-specific techs. There are race-specific techs already, so we know it can be done. But the race-specific techs also make practically no difference. A wider detection radius for Sophons; a building which adds experience to Hissho ships in the unlikely case they sit still. IMHO these are not interesting enough.



I have had pretty good success with TC mods (Civ IV Dune Wars, for example) where each faction has a very different play style. This highly encourages players to replay as each different faction, which means they spend more hours playing. I don't really see much reason to replay the current ES to get a slightly different science rate or higher damage.

davea wrote:
I have had pretty good success with TC mods (Civ IV Dune Wars, for example) where each faction has a very different play style.

Civ vanilla still does this very well, relative to ES, since the bonuses you get are highly varied and the units you receive decide at which point in "history" you are at your best. So you could give the Cravers a unique hull early in the tech tree while Hisho has access to a tech mid-way up the tree that gives him an invasion bonus, and so on. Wonders would also work nicely since they help shape a given nation's role from match to match.

Good point, even vanilla civ makes the races more different than ES alpha.

DLC content right here!



i think...

I was disappointed too, when I first saw that the aliens in ES had mostly superficial differences that don't translate to major differences in strategy.



The visual design and backstory of the alien races is great, but the lack of gameplay difference may harm replayability. Games like this are all about replayability. The tech tree differences are why I played GalCiv2/TA for so long after they finally added big racial tech differences, and why I can never seem to stick with a Civ game past the first few months, since every faction moves through the same basic tech tree. Racial traits aren't enough, if everyone has the same tech tree.



Even if one assumes that star travel and combat techs will be the same (which is the shortcut GalCiv2/TA took), it's the economic development differences that can shake up a game, and give you a reason to play one faction over another.



I don't think it can be improved in ES unless the devs are willing to make some major restructuring of the tech tree for each race. Maybe in a later expansion? GalCiv2 didn't do it right away, so maybe it's good to get the basic underlying mechanics solid, before any major restructuring.

Well, I think part of this is that everything's still in alpha. There are Race-Specific tech, but not to many of them, and that's probably a good thing, what with basic facets of the game not working yet. It's still alpha: if it's like this in Beta, then it's more likely a flaw in the game.

Tavar wrote:
Well, I think part of this is that everything's still in alpha. There are Race-Specific tech, but not to many of them, and that's probably a good thing, what with basic facets of the game not working yet. It's still alpha: if it's like this in Beta, then it's more likely a flaw in the game.

It's forgivable because the development is early but I too would be concern if it's in late stages. Personally I don't mind, but i'm not a seasoned strategy gamer.

Let me begin by saying, that I love this game and have 60+ hours into it already.



I have played quite a few games and several of the races, and I am invariably left with the feeling that they are all pretty much the same. For the most part, the bonuses and penalties can be replicated or overcome with the acquisition of resources or through research. Perhaps only the Craver's special ability truly sets it apart. And even then, it is merely an economic effect.



In order for the differences to be felt and for strategy and tactics to evolve from those effects, I believe that the differences need to be pronounced.



Many of you will remember the excellent VGA Planets (1992) by Tim Wisseman. As a classic 4x game it shares a lot with Endless, however, to my mind, it boasts racial abilities that fundamentally altered the way almost every race was played. I'll discuss a couple.



The Feds (think Star Trek) had great economies, special ship bonuses, and quick refits

The Birds (Romulans): cloaking, ability to slip into systems and evade mines and detection

The Pirates (my favouries): a couple ships with double the speed of any other, the ability to drain fuel and cargo from enemy ships, as well as capture them, and at least one cloaking ship.

The Rebels (ahem): build fighters in space, devastating ground attack and a hyperspacing ship that could jump vast distances and deliver cargo (mines? etc.)



The abilities of each race are not just different in magnitude but also in character. A few races had super ships while some others (Pirates) had as their largest, cruisers. Some had economic advantages that couldn't be matched. Another had web mines which not only damaged the enemy vessel, but stopped it in space and drained it of fuel. Once the fuel is gone, the ship is easily captured. Imagine the possibilities if the Pirates with their 2x speed, cloaking ship were to trade with the Crystals for and their web mines. Devastating! Take a look at the Wiki for info on this game: http://vgaplanets.org/index.php/Main_Page.



Anyway, the point is that % change modifiers for each race are nice and provide subtle differences, but I think what is needed are dramatic differences if we really want each race to stand out.



The beautiful thing about ES is that it has the framework to do what I've described.

Cravers: The industry giant, till they fall.



Sophons: The science guys, with poor melee.



Hissho: Space samurai, bad school grades.



Horatio: Clone armys, cloned from a bad engineer.



United Empire: For fun and profit, as long as the heros get a cut.

Good summary of the racial backstories. The question is how to turn these into more interesting advantages and disadvantages, compared to what we have now. For example, what would be a more interesting set of race-specific techs for Sophons? Expanding on telepathy, allowing them to take over planets with less unhappiness? Maybe Hissho could have some unique ship weapons, or an intermediate hull size, or ship modules that increase dodge.

Sophons seem like the sort of race that would be able to produce the sorts of technologys that most races would only find in science fiction.



Lighning guns and other types of crazy (Laws of physics braking) type stuff would be cool.

I think the idea is not to make a race 'better' at something that everyone can do. For example, if they have more powerful weapons then the counter is just to have more ships or better defences. However, if the ability is unique, then all sorts of choices arise.



I referenced VGA Planets because I'm not a game designer and it would be pointless for me to try to come up with a whole range of stuff. I'd be happy to contribute one thing (or maybe simply happy to have spurned the conversation).



What if one race's ability was to capture enemy ships and with it points towards that vessel's tech?

- I would think twice about leaving my ships as prey to these guys and be damned sure that a battle with them was an all or nothing proposition



What if a race could draw it's own strings? I guess this is obviated by warp tech, but in my opinion the jury is still out on warp tech in this game.



Sabotage?



The ability to stall a fleet. Delaying an enemy fleet's movement for a turn could open incredible opportunities for penetrating defences particularly in a universe without warp tech.



Anyway, you guys get the idea.

The fly in the ointment for all these ideas is that it's going to be a multiplayer game, as well as single-player. Those two different (and overlapping) player groups have different priorities.



Multiplayer games can be fun when the factions are highly differentiated, but they have to be balanced so no faction is intrinsically hard or easy to win with.



By contrast, a singleplayer game can be fun if some factions are easy, and others are harder to play, due to their faction traits and tech trees. That was the case with GalCiv2. As a strictly singleplayer game, some factions in GalCiv2 were hard to get started and win with. Nobody cared, because it wasn't multiplayer. You waited until you had a good feel for the game with easier factions, before tackling the tougher ones. That won't work for multiplayer balance, and it might explain why there isn't more differentiation between races in the current ES design.



As someone who has too many schedule conflicts to do much MP (especially strategy games, which can be very time-consuming), I hope the devs aren't going overboard in trying to make all factions equally easy to play, for the sake of multiplayer.

hobbes wrote:
I think the idea is not to make a race 'better' at something that everyone can do. For example, if they have more powerful weapons then the counter is just to have more ships or better defences. However, if the ability is unique, then all sorts of choices arise.



I referenced VGA Planets because I'm not a game designer and it would be pointless for me to try to come up with a whole range of stuff. I'd be happy to contribute one thing (or maybe simply happy to have spurned the conversation).



What if one race's ability was to capture enemy ships and with it points towards that vessel's tech?

- I would think twice about leaving my ships as prey to these guys and be damned sure that a battle with them was an all or nothing proposition



What if a race could draw it's own strings? I guess this is obviated by warp tech, but in my opinion the jury is still out on warp tech in this game.



Sabotage?



The ability to stall a fleet. Delaying an enemy fleet's movement for a turn could open incredible opportunities for penetrating defences particularly in a universe without warp tech.



Anyway, you guys get the idea.

This is a great idea. Unique racial abilities are really the way to go. They should cost time and precious resources to use, and should be situatonal and slightly dangerous. This way the race you choose can really inform your playstyle. So, for example, the Hissho could have this ridiculously massive suicide weapon with a huge production cost that can only be made once every 10 turns and must survive to the melee phase of combat where it immediately destroys both fleets. The Cravers could initiate a population boom in a system that has a lot of excess food, where that system would grow at an insane rate for the next several turns but it could not produce anything else. The boom could only be exercised once every 20 turns or so.



These are all stream of consciousness, and these exact ideas might not work, but this is the sort of thing that could really change stuff up.

My suggestion for race specific active abilities



Sophon:Collapse string/wormhole: self-explanatory

Pro:the puny Sophon can hide for the early-mid game

Con:it hampers the Sophons growth/exploration



Hissho: Ramming speed: (I'm think a card in battle) destroys ships in the Hissho fleet and converts their HP+Tonnage*X (X is a value that can be adjusted for balance purposes)

Pro: Allows the Hissho to do tremendous damage if they are lousing a battle or build cheap suicide fleets.

Con: They are lousing an entire fleet!



UE: Prosperity: trigger say 50 turns of increased FIDS followed by 50 turns of decreased FIDS

Pro: Like any capitalist society you make a lot of money, food ect. right now...

Con:but like all capitalist societies you base it on things like speculation, overvalued investments and currency exchanges witch ultimately lead to depressions.



Craver: Cannibalism: Sac Pop for sudden FIDS increases

Pro:When there is nothing else to eat then eat your people

Con: you're a monster and you lose population



Horatio:actually the current cloning ability works great I'm thinking expand it so you can buy population points.

Pro: Fast growth yay!!!!

Con: It costs how much???? (seriously your cloning million if not billions in less then a year that is going to cost a lot.)



Based on descriptions



Ameoba: Force cease fire

Pro: Suddenly ceases a war for X turns.

Con: Long cool down so be nice.



Sowers: Terraforming: Turn a world immediately to a certain planet type for a lot of Dust possibly growing each time this abilty is used

Pro: Lots of good planets

Con:Cost a lot and if you do it to a lot of planets you become a target (If you have 6 Terran worlds you are going to be a target)



That's what I'm thinking to make the races unique and it is easy to balance once implemented.

stevenmc409 wrote:


UE: Prosperity: trigger say 50 turns of increased FIDS followed by 50 turns of decreased FIDS

Pro: Like any capitalist society you make a lot of money, food ect. right now...

Con:but like all capitalist societies you base it on things like speculation, overvalued investments and currency exchanges witch ultimately lead to depressions.

It's already the locust ability of Cravers.