Fenrakk101 wrote:
You couldn't even follow your own opinion.



Your train of thought:

>Hissho are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced with all the other factions, even though I'm the only person on the entire forums who claims this

>Hissho are unbalanced and need a nerf to be balanced, but are still not overpowered because if you nerf a race that's balanced it's still balanced(???)

It give a great difference between a littel unbalancing and totaly overpowered.

Balam wrote:
Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?



Dark's points about how it's possible to counter a Hissho player are perfectly valid if we are talking about a 1 on 1 or even 4 or 8 players match if everyone knows what they are doing.



Others comments about how bushido might be unfair are also valid if we are talking about set ups where the Hissho gets easy prey (AI, early quitters, novice players).



Both opinions can be right or wrong depending on the situation.



If you really want a "balanced experience" play 1 on 1 because you are not going to find balance in a 8 players match. It's hard enough to balance a 1 on 1 game. Heck, even when talking about chess some people say that white have the advantage while others swear by black. Now, to have a balanced 8 players game with so many variables like different factions, traits, luck and skill levels is pretty much impossible. Hissho aggravates the problem because they get such a raw bonus from easy meat, but pretty much anyone can take advantage of a weak player.



I understand that for a lot of people MP equals to a 8 players public game with some friends and a bunch of random people. In this case I agree that a good Hissho player might be a bit to much but I don't see an easy way out. Even if they nerf Hissho there is always gonna be some way to exploit the system and people who play to win are gonna use and abuse it.



To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.

I agree with your opinion.

it gives so much solutions, oterh races other tactics.Its too not good to let live a good sophon only in peace with his neighbours.Itsa better to attack him, and if you have a craver or hissoh neigbhour you must be prepared if he attacking you.Its the nature of the race and it has reason that the guy has choosen this race.



The idea with a testmacht is good.Take hissoh and find a friend that playing very well with his hissoh race.I ask a friend too for a testmach, he use horatio and iss a very strong player that attacking early too.

We will see if the hissoh are OP.

Balam wrote:
To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.

Not everyone is playing to win, they're playing for fun. But that doesn't mean losing is fun.

That's why people drop out of 8p games when they discover they have an abysmal starting position. And that's why people don't want the Hissho to be overpowered.

The Hissho cannot be perfectly countered in a 1v1 game. You can try, and maybe succeed, but if the Hissho player knows what he's doing then you're not even going to have the benefit of a chance.

The game is not balanced, because the Hissho are in fact overpowered. Just because you like having a game where one race makes it a significant challenge to win, doesn't mean the game is balanced. You might like it, but some people want to have a game where UE can beat Hissho just as easily as Hissho can beat UE or Sophons.

The Hissho cannot be perfectly countered in a 1v1 game. You can try, and maybe succeed, but if the Hissho player knows what he's doing then you're not even going to have the benefit of a chance.

i say you have the same chance like the hissoh in 1v1battle with a other good race like sophons, Humans or amöba.Somebody now good hissoh players?let us make a test, over a discussion we dont come to a piont.

I agree hisho are overpowered imho even badly.



I stopped playing them , unless there is another hisho in game, because imho it isnt fair.

Balam wrote:
Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?

Honestly? It's more frustration at how he posted in multiple threads that the game is balanced when it's not, and the sheer ridiculousness of some of the statements he has made. Among other things, he needs to realize that balance, fun, and a challenge are all completely different things.



And Darkschemo: Apparently you have never even heard of admin heroes, legendary hero attribute (so you start with +15prod on the hero), and the +3 production/pop planet anomaly?

This setup alone will allow your starting planet to manufacture ships in bulk very easily.



At this point, I've given up and will probably ignore him. Arguing on the internet is utterly pointless and a waste of time.

I am not sure about that. Let me quote this:



“It’s Too Good!”



Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!



The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.



Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.” Let’s look at an example.



Personaly I don't think that the game is mature enough for all the "NERF IT" outrcry, specially because most of the people crying about unbalance aren't exactly the best players around.



When playing with my Hissho against good players using other factions, my overall score will be lower then the others until I start to get bushido bonuses (because I got mostly traits which help me fight while other factions will be getting traits which help 'em growth). Most of those good players who outgrow my Hissho before bushido (which really any decent player should be able to do because of my traits) don't think Hissho is OP at all. They say its slow, that it's nothing special and I agree. It's not like you will be getting 80% after your first rush. Against a good player it takes a lot of effort to even invade a single system.



When playing with not so good players usually I got the highest score BEFORE I even get the bushido bonus. Guess what? This kind of players form the majority (but not all) of players crying about how Hissho is OP. They are the first ones to cry in game "HISSHO IS SO OP" and I'm like wtf, I didn't even invade yet. I mean, if someone can't overgrow a Hissho with nothing but war traits, something is very wrong with their strat. Maybe they should work out on that instead of crying OP.



Dark talks about how Hissho in 1x1 and I agree with him. Before Hissho invades he got no bonus at all while other factions start with some sort of bonus already. It's not unreasonable to think that a good player would be able to get his initial advantage and run with it preventing the Hissho to invade his systems at all, or even better, rushing the Hissho himself.



I do agree that a Hissho getting 80% early on is very powerfull but that only happens if the Hissho gets an AI or a noob to eat. When playing against good players that's not going to happen anyways and that's why I think this is a no-issue.

This iss exactly that what i mean and i try to discribe her.But it looks like that nobody will her any arguments.

And Darkschemo: Apparently you have never even heard of admin heroes, legendary hero attribute (so you start with +15prod on the hero), and the +3 production/pop planet anomaly?

This setup alone will allow your starting planet to manufacture ships in bulk very easily.

And now?I can use it with Hissoh, Craver, Horatio and all the other races. A littel test have show me yesterday that the "säer" have a very strong race affinity.I think ther are underrated but must test it with a own race in multiplayer before i can create a meaningfuel opinion.



Balam has discribe this very well.In normal case the Hissoh are in disadvantage at start.I´ve rushed sometimes a hissoh before he build only one ship.

Yesterday i joined a running game(Round3) 3 Humans and one Ai, a Hissoh standard race.I conrtoled then the vanilla Hissoh and was in a great disadvantage from start up.A great Map, i found the first other player in round 35...Before i attack anybody i obsolete the other players and attack then the host.After he losses his fleet he quit.The standard race configs from hissoh are trash, nonetheless i obsolete the others with a trash race.

What i will say with this example is that you can play well with all configs if you create a strategy based on the advanatges of the race.



Build a anti-rush race and use it if you have a lot of aggresive races in a galaxy.I corrected some post her that i doing before and i agree with you that the FIDS Bonus can bring to a very powerfuel level from Hissoh and this is in special conditions to strong, but not OP!A littel cap for the FIDS bonus is enough to nerf the hissoh sufficient, or as option that they loose a piece from the bonus if they lost self a system.



I wirght it allready before, on smaller maps the hissoh are in advantage, on bigger maps i can research for an example with the sophons the 100% WIND-Bonus before the hissoh can reach or attack any enemy or become any bonus.

Dark, you JUST agreed that hissho need nerfs to their FIDS affinity. Congratulations on agreeing with what we have been trying to tell you and other people. Now you seem to understand better.

Yes thats true.But i dont agree with you that the hissoh are overpowerd.

No offense Dark, but...I am about as easy going a player as you will find, having fun to me is not necessarily predicated upon winning. However, even I stopped joining games with Hissho players until Amplitude nerfs them. It's just a collasal waste of discretionary free-time. I'm not the best player in the world by any stretch of the imagination. But, I have tried every conceivable strat to counter the cascading FIDS bonus by turn 30 Hissho rape-fest and it can't be done. If the Hissho player has half a clue how to fully exploit the OP'd-ness it's simply game over before it even really gets going.



This is a shame, because the game is most fun during the mid stages when everyone has built-up and tech'd up a bit. But, unfortunately with a Hissho and his myriad doom-stack fleets running amok all over the map, we don't get to enjoy the mid-game.



Anyone who says Hissho are not grotesquely over-powered are either smoking something or trolling.



Zazen

i do not really understand why some people have so big problems with the Hissoh Faction, but when it is a real problem for the community or for a big part of player then i am the last that have a problem with a Hissoh nerf.

But i think some people her do really exaggerate the "problem" and i have a problem with exaggerations.

Hissohs and all the other races are welcome in my server, i dont make differences between the races.

Anyone who says Hissho are not grotesquely over-powered are either smoking something or trolling.

This iss trolling.And you call me troll yes....very funny.If you would not follow my opinion then it is your choice but dont talk trash over peoples that you not know.

remember when everyone used to say the hissho were underpowerd?

DarkSchemo wrote:
i do not really understand why some people have so big problems with the Hissoh Faction, but when it is a real problem for the community or for a big part of player then i am the last that have a problem with a Hissoh nerf.

But i think some people her do really exaggerate the "problem" and i have a problem with exaggerations.

Hissohs and all the other races are welcome in my server, i dont make differences between the races.





This iss trolling.And you call me troll yes....very funny.If you would not follow my opinion then it is your choice but dont talk trash over peoples that you not know.

You couldn't even follow your own opinion.



Your train of thought:

>Hissho are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced with all the other factions, even though I'm the only person on the entire forums who claims this

>Hissho are unbalanced and need a nerf to be balanced, but are still not overpowered because if you nerf a race that's balanced it's still balanced(???)

Tiggy wrote:
remember when everyone used to say the hissho were underpowerd?

This statement was made before multiplayer was released, and it was based on the fact that the AI does not know how to get/maintain the bushido bonus. This is still true.



There are two problems here.

1. Bushido can be "exploited" by taking and retaking the same planet, or by "collusion" with a friendly ally

2. Even without exploiting, +80% on FIDS is pretty strong.



For (2), it is easy to change the bonus so it is +10% per system instead of +20%, and easy to change so that it does not apply to science (which fits with their "Space Cadet" limitation). I have done this in the community mod:



/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/15801-released-community-bug-fix-balance-mod



Is this enough of a solution? Or is something else requested?

Are you guys even talking about the same thing or just arguing for fun?



Dark's points about how it's possible to counter a Hissho player are perfectly valid if we are talking about a 1 on 1 or even 4 or 8 players match if everyone knows what they are doing.



Others comments about how bushido might be unfair are also valid if we are talking about set ups where the Hissho gets easy prey (AI, early quitters, novice players).



Both opinions can be right or wrong depending on the situation.



If you really want a "balanced experience" play 1 on 1 because you are not going to find balance in a 8 players match. It's hard enough to balance a 1 on 1 game. Heck, even when talking about chess some people say that white have the advantage while others swear by black. Now, to have a balanced 8 players game with so many variables like different factions, traits, luck and skill levels is pretty much impossible. Hissho aggravates the problem because they get such a raw bonus from easy meat, but pretty much anyone can take advantage of a weak player.



I understand that for a lot of people MP equals to a 8 players public game with some friends and a bunch of random people. In this case I agree that a good Hissho player might be a bit to much but I don't see an easy way out. Even if they nerf Hissho there is always gonna be some way to exploit the system and people who play to win are gonna use and abuse it.



To get back on the topic, the OP mentioned pop + military traits and they are not exclusive to the Hissho so let's just drop that for now. I agree with him that those traits (militarist, master of destruction and pop growth combo) are very strong specially when combined with the Hissho faction but I disagree with his conclusion. Not everyone plays to win and they can have fun in mp with other strats even though they might end up losing. Now if you want to play to win just go with the wind and get all the help you can get. If you, the OP, plays MP to stomp people just suck it up and get those traits. Until they "rebalance" the game, then you just adapt and change yours traits to the next best thing.

DarkSchemo wrote:
It give a great difference between a littel unbalancing and totaly overpowered.

To be technical, if it's unbalanced in their favor, they're overpowered.

One thing I notice quite often are players that just spread like cancer plopping down on any systems they can grab in mad free for all expansion. Well that might work well against the AI, but against a Hissho player your just laying little cookies out everywhere for him(her) to eat. Tone back the early land grab to important systems and to what you can protect and you blunt quite a bit of Hissho power. You can also try playing on smaller maps with fewer stars to similar effect. I'd also be worried about a possible "cheat" where 2 Hissho players continually swap systems back and forth for huge mutual bonuses.. that's definitely one that doesnt have a simple play solution.

Or...maybe you just need to get better at playing it? Growth + Offense is only one of many viable builds in MP.

I hate using the learn to play line, I really do, but, learn to play. Every strategy has a counter. Just because you dont know it or do not know how to use it correctly does NOT mean the game is broken.

I'm sure if there is a successfull counter to the Hissho affinity, which doesn't rely on either taking Hissho yourself or avoiding any weak players in the game, I'm sure we would all like to hear it.

Grubsnik wrote:
I'm sure if there is a successfull counter to the Hissho affinity, which doesn't rely on either taking Hissho yourself or avoiding any weak players in the game, I'm sure we would all like to hear it.

Step 1: Get Applied Casimir Effect before the Hissho (which shouldn't be hard enough because Hissho gets zero bonuses until he starts invading) and find him.

Step 2: Send a endless stream of ships to pound the Hissho - this is very important, do no stop sending ships until you beat the Hissho out of the game (again not a problem because you will hit before the Hissho gets any FIDS bonus).

Step 3: ???

Step 4: WIN



Just to clarify, step 2 might pose a problem if you don't have the right traits but this has absolutely nothing to do with Hissho or bushido. Anyone can take militarist and master of destruction so lets just leave it out of the present discussion.

Balam wrote:
Step 1: Get Applied Casimir Effect before the Hissho (which shouldn't be hard enough because Hissho gets zero bonuses until he starts invading) and find him.

Step 2: Send a endless stream of ships to pound the Hissho - this is very important, do no stop sending ships until you beat the Hissho out of the game (again not a problem because you will hit before the Hissho gets any FIDS bonus).

Step 3: ???

Step 4: WIN



Just to clarify, step 2 might pose a problem if you don't have the right traits but this has absolutely nothing to do with Hissho or bushido. Anyone can take militarist and master of destruction so lets just leave it out of the present discussion.

While it sounds reasonable , consider 2 practic points:



1-How many times during war when you conquer a planet, even having an upper militarily hand, it happens that that the enemy retakes the planet , even only for one turn?Imoh often and each such even boosts hisho atm for 20 % fids...



2-You must find him , and you must be reasonably near him , and pray its the only hisho in game. Now say it is a 6 players game with 2 hisho, not unreasonable assumption.While you play with the one hisho , the other one feeds on some weak players mniam mniam , and goes on with 80 % fids boost.You might also have no clear path to any hisho, and while you carve your path , they feed.



I agree with majority here, hisho atm are so overpowered i ask hihso based races to change before game or just join as one, so i can have a 80 % boost to.



Ah another one:



You might get attacked yourself and be to busy defending to take them out early, they feed you loose.

I was talking about a duel scenario. But it can work just fine even if you add more players to the equation.



1. I agree, that does happens. But you can just go straight to his home system massing your fleets in there or keep all his systems blockaded. You can do anything you want after you get control of his space.



2. Well it doesn't have to be YOU. Anyone near the Hissho can accomplish it or even better everyone against him. 2 Hisshos without bushido bonus can not hold 4 players.



I do understand where you are coming from though. In a 6 players game its hard enough to find a decent player, let alone 6, and Hissho loves weak players. Thats the real issue - a Hissho will be able to dominate a 6 players game only if they have an easy meal. When talking about balance I think its fair to imagine that all the parts have equal skill. A good player will beat a weak player no matter what.



For Hissho to become overpowered (get 80% early game) you really a weak link (weak players/AI). Take that away and Hissho is no big deal.

For a duel scenario i might agree that hisho are more or less ok .(tough the bonus for retaking planets after 1 turn still bothers me even for duel).



As for the rest the reality is 90 % of players you meet in public matches are weak with 1-2 per game good, so if bushido doesnt get nerfed/modified, only way to win in public matches would be to go hisho, which i think is bad for the game.

Anyone benefits from weak players though. Even without Hissho, having weak players near by gives you better opportunity for expansion and ships for dust recyclers/knowledge gathering.



You know, those games where some good player expands all over their weaker neighbors space and get x2 the score of everyone else by turn 25 while you are locked in a expansion race with a good player in your neighborhood.



So what can we do? Ban knowledge gathering, dust recyclers, master of illusion and militarist because they give a big advantage when you have weak players around?



People are just gonna find new ways to exploit weak players and that's the reason why I think they should not be considered when talking about balance.



I know I may sound like a crazy elitist but that's far from the truth. I'm not saying we should ban weak players, instead let 'em be exploited until they learn. If you want balance, play a duel againts a good player because you are not going to find it in a public 8 players game. Someone is going to get easily exploited neighbors, be it a Hissho eating em, someone milking em for dust/science, someone expanding all over em, it doesn't matter. It's going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it.

Well sure weak player near alwys is advantage but thing is with all other races they gain advantage x 1 , with hisho is like advantage x 5 from such a situation.



I can deal with a bit of bad luck situation , i dont want to deal with a hopeless one.



As for playing with weak players i beloeve a descritopn for games in lobby solves it: i would write i got like 30 games behind me and rarely loose one, experienced players only.

Btw you seem to know what you are talking about , hope to meet you ingame someday

do people play duels? If they are Hissho would be a terrible choice to use. 4-6 players seems to be the most common game size. The devs noted Hissho changes/nerfs in expansion so i have not been using Hissho as they clearly will receive some changes and I don't wish to be used to them as they are now. Cravers are stronger anyways under the current meta (host's game settings specifically). Many planets, Fast setting, yea +25% on top of bigger bonuses is even better.

murphylaw wrote:
then please, by all means, post your build here. Otherwise...

You act like this is league of legends... You know, build, counter... etc. Just noting ^__^

It is easy to counter this fyi...

DMT wrote:
It is easy to counter this fyi...

then please, by all means, post your build here. Otherwise...

Defensive traits are more effective than offensive ones in straight combat...

Population growth is king amongst fids. And offense is superior to defense BECAUSE the traits make it so. Master of destruction ensures defense gets the back seat, as does the rock, paper, scissors combat. I guarantee that whatever build you create cannot stand up to a full growth and offense build. Production is just too high and offense is overwhelming.

rush them lol, no chance to use them

That's what I thought...

No response on a build on how to beat the Growth+offense build.

Sooo, game's still broken.

The only build I've never been able to counter is a skilled Hissho player.



I have steamrolled aggressive folk before. Tech can counter them, but unfortunately not Hissho since bushido gives them a boost to science (up to 80%) in addition to production and growth that even the highest-tweaked sophons cannot match.

Chibiabos wrote:
The only build I've never been able to counter is a skilled Hissho player.



I have steamrolled aggressive folk before. Tech can counter them, but unfortunately not Hissho since bushido gives them a boost to science (up to 80%) in addition to production and growth that even the highest-tweaked sophons cannot match.

Yeah, while guerilla tactics are incredibly difficult to fight back (especially for newer players) there are still ways to counter them. And like you said, Hissho are the only ones who can't be effectively countered without pouring down on them with a 3v1.

If by guerrilla you mean kamikaze, even they won't last long as the hissho can build more suicidal fleets than you with their bushido fids bonus -- not just pure industry, but growing, expanding, for even stronger overpowering FIDS. Yeah, it pretty much takes at LEAST 3, but even if they are well skilled, a Hissho can still hang on. One tactic I that might work is massive organized, coordinated planetary blockades on Hissho so they had no access to their Titanium or other resources to build advanced ship.



It is unfortunately inadvisable to conquer Hissho worlds in most situations, as conquered worlds are defenseless due to the obscenely slow defense recovery, and they could retake their world back in one turn and get a fresh bushido buff in the process.



It is very tough



I would love to see a private game organized of skilled players versus one skilled hissho



But unfortunately even getting random players together is hard enough, waiting for specific players to get together would probably never happen unless millions of players start playing Endless Space multiplayer.



FYI, to the original poster, I've had several games won by wonder victory after early game aggressors were snuffed out by peaceful players countering them.

Chibiabos wrote:
If by guerrilla you mean kamikaze, even they won't last long as the hissho can build more suicidal fleets than you with their bushido fids bonus -- not just pure industry, but growing, expanding, for even stronger overpowering FIDS. Yeah, it pretty much takes at LEAST 3, but even if they are well skilled, a Hissho can still hang on. One tactic I that might work is massive organized, coordinated planetary blockades on Hissho so they had no access to their Titanium or other resources to build advanced ship.



It is unfortunately inadvisable to conquer Hissho worlds in most situations, as conquered worlds are defenseless due to the obscenely slow defense recovery, and they could retake their world back in one turn and get a fresh bushido buff in the process.



It is very tough



I would love to see a private game organized of skilled players versus one skilled hissho



But unfortunately even getting random players together is hard enough, waiting for specific players to get together would probably never happen unless millions of players start playing Endless Space multiplayer.



FYI, to the original poster, I've had several games won by wonder victory after early game aggressors were snuffed out by peaceful players countering them.

I've never played Hissho, so tell me something about their Bushido; if Razing Systems were added, would you be able to deny their bushido that way? As in, do they get bushido for colonizing systems, or only for conquering them?

Only for conquering or re-taking their own worlds that an enemy conquered from them. I'm not sure how razing would operate ... how many turns would it take, for instance, and if a planet is being invaded and its invasion would complete the same turn the razing would, would it be conquered or razed?

On Topic:

While an aggressive player may have better fleets, you as a peaceful player should ideally have better tech, and should be able to beat his fleets via tech advantage. You could also try and get other peaceful players to help out with the aggression.



Regarding Hissho:

Well the thing is, hissho affinity is only useful IF you conquer a system. Before that, it's like having no faction affinity whatsoever. The key part, is not letting the hissho invade systems. If you have a game full of evenly skilled players, then hissho is very much balanced. Then the hissho has to put a lot of effort into just invading one system.

More often than not though, you don't get games with evenly matched players. The hissho player typically ends up invading a lesser skilled player, and can quickly gain the 1.8x fids bonus. I personally propose that Buishdo bonus runs on a delay time of five turns, and that if a player takes back the conquered system, the bushido bonus is nullified. Furthermore, bushido bonus should also stack a max of three times.

Chibiabos wrote:
Only for conquering or re-taking their own worlds that an enemy conquered from them. I'm not sure how razing would operate ... how many turns would it take, for instance, and if a planet is being invaded and its invasion would complete the same turn the razing would, would it be conquered or razed?

That's what I'm wondering. I imagine razing systems would mean they re-colonize the system, not re-conquer it, meaning razing systems could possibly be an effective way to deny a Hissho player their bushido bonuses.

Your game is pointless to play in MP, unless ALL the players want to take an Offensive + Pop Growth race.



If only ONE player has this combo maxed out in a game, the game is basically already over.



Please fix the numbers and add some Negative Population growth modifiers to the Offensive traits.



thanks

You can counter all races and all tactics in this game!An early rush iss so easy defeatable.An hissho are not op.i played a lot of games versus hissoh players.Last time i must defend me versus to strong hissohs, and i defeat both

a good economy in midgame iss the best solution for all, with enough dust you change your fleet attributes fast and efficent.One perfect army with a good general can beet easily 4 or5 enemy fleets they have a wrong config.in early game iss the bushiodeffect no problem, what he bring the hissoh player?Nothig.Rockets destroy , or destroy not.Kinetik hits bad in the first phase of battle.Later if the hissoh has laser it is a strong race attribute, but you have your own(since, heroes, production) you must only use this.



What will you hear for a build?Every player has different configs, it gaves no standard build to counter a rusher, and that iss good.You must learn it selve with your race!

DarkSchemo wrote:
You can counter all races and all tactics in this game!An early rush iss so easy defeatable.An hissho are not op.i played a lot of games versus hissoh players.Last time i must defend me versus to strong hissohs, and i defeat both

Hissho ARE overpowered, and many veteran Hissho players will tell you the same. If you didn't get steamrolled by two Hissho players then they weren't playing the Hissho tactics properly, because there's really no counter to an experienced Hissho player. If you take their planet, they take it back and get massive bushido buffs. Hissho are the most difficult enemy to fight in the game because attacking them is like charging through a minefield.

I am a experience player i think.i have no problems with hissoh.A good player iss good with all races.my good economy ranged ther bushido mostly out.In combination with a good general its hart too defeat a strong fleet but its possibel and i see no problem with hissoh.I self play cravers or Sophons, but i have too a hissoh race.I prefer the sophons.You must just keep in mind that he played hissoh, dont send him garbage fleets to load his bushido.

DarkSchemo wrote:
I am a experience player i think.i have no problems with hissoh.A good player iss good with all races.my good economy ranged ther bushido mostly out.In combination with a good general its hart too defeat a strong fleet but its possibel and i see no problem with hissoh.I self play cravers or Sophons, but i have too a hissoh race.I prefer the sophons.You must just keep in mind that he played hissoh, dont send him garbage fleets to load his bushido.

I would like to direct you to this thread:



/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12428-proposed-nerf-hissho-rebalance



More on this topic is covered there.

Let's eliminate some misleading statements here. Winning through wonders in an 8 player game doesn't "counter" anything, it just means you were likely not near the hissho player, the hissho wasnt good enough, or 2 hisshos spent the day fighting while the rest of the game spanked their tech tree. Anyone can win an 8 player game given a good position and peaceful neighbors and/or bad opponents. Did you win? sure. Did it counter the hissho? not at all. If you didnt have 6 players of meat shield/allies/tech trading monkeys, i think you would be dead, and being as i have played several games with you, i know you would be dead.



Using ideally, makes a fantasy scenario. You are hoping for the best situation in which your plan will work, anything else and it fails. Ideally, the hissho player will go afk at game start, and you can kill them at your leisure.



Speaking of same strategy, I think your best chance of survival is to also spam tiny ships and just trade in fights. Honestly you can only win if you prevent them from taking a system ever, and in an 8 player game, there is likely someone easy to hit first. Negate the fids bonus and they become just like any other race (or worse) trying to rush. If you lose a system, you will die. Resist as you will, you will die.



DarkSchemo has clearly not played against veteran players, or is bonkers. maybe both. How can i get onto other regions for mp? i must see these amazing hissho counters. Because if it truly exists, then the games multi is worth playing again, maybe.

Kyu wrote:
Let's eliminate some misleading statements here. Winning through wonders in an 8 player game doesn't "counter" anything, it just means you were likely not near the hissho player, the hissho wasnt good enough, or 2 hisshos spent the day fighting while the rest of the game spanked their tech tree. Anyone can win an 8 player game given a good position and peaceful neighbors and/or bad opponents. Did you win? sure. Did it counter the hissho? not at all. If you didnt have 6 players of meat shield/allies/tech trading monkeys, i think you would be dead, and being as i have played several games with you, i know you would be dead.



Using ideally, makes a fantasy scenario. You are hoping for the best situation in which your plan will work, anything else and it fails. Ideally, the hissho player will go afk at game start, and you can kill them at your leisure.



Speaking of same strategy, I think your best chance of survival is to also spam tiny ships and just trade in fights. Honestly you can only win if you prevent them from taking a system ever, and in an 8 player game, there is likely someone easy to hit first. Negate the fids bonus and they become just like any other race (or worse) trying to rush. If you lose a system, you will die. Resist as you will, you will die.



DarkSchemo has clearly not played against veteran players, or is bonkers. maybe both. How can i get onto other regions for mp? i must see these amazing hissho counters. Because if it truly exists, then the games multi is worth playing again, maybe.

i played a lot and i played also versus the best in my region.That you can not build a wonder versus hissoh ok...thats truebut what is your problem to beat hissoh?they dont have imba ships, you can counter an hissoh with the same tactic like all toher races i see ther no problem.Dont talk over me and my experience if you dont play with me, you are a unashamedly whiner.i have my own opinion and i dont see a problem in hissoh as race.work on your tactic before whining.Its the hissoh bonus, he must play aggresive to get him.if you scout a hissoh neighbour you know what comes as next...some small things for the hissoh must be fixed, its not ok to become bushido to attack a ascout or a colonyship or its not ok become the windbonus for the same system why he has recover it.But that are small balancing aspects and they dont make the hissoh overpowerd.

Simple fact DarkSchemo:

any good Hissho player will have begun invading by turn 30 or so, and by turn 50 will be operating at 1.8x bonus.

and if he is any good, he will continue to aggressively invade and maintain that bonus.



So the question becomes: how do you counter someone who is operating 1.8x FIDS while you got regular FIDS production?

Well, veteran players rarely play 8P maps I've noticed, because it just takes too long for MP, and expecting all 8 to actually stay for the game which would run for like 150 turns (probably 10+ hours?) is all but impossible.



As the others have said.

Assuming everyone is skilled, yes its possible to stop the 38 or so ships at turn 30.



However, in MP, a game filled with highly skilled players just doesn't happen.



With regards to the OP, I would like to face someone's pop growth offensive faction with my amoeba sometime. I use no extra pop growth, but I get the feeling I'd be able to hold my own, and then counterattack with high tech units.

The biggest advantage of being defender, after all, is really short logistics chain and ability to manufacture counter-ships right away.



If anything, what breaks MP is the completely random maps that can give you a system with 3 easily colonizable planets right beside you, while the enemy player gets nothing.

Why dont you make a no Hisso game?

DMT wrote:
Why dont you make a no Hisso game?

That's really my one and only standing rule in my games: No Hissho.



What's unfortunate is when hosts with full games allow Hissho, even with new players in the match. The excuses I've heard are that it's a "learning experience" or some inane bullcrap about how "everyone" can just gang up on the Hissho and make everything happy and fun and defeat the menace.



A. The only lesson anyone will get is that Hissho are OP. GG idiot host, we're all pretty aware of that now enough to inform new players right off the bat. No need to put them through hell. (also LOL when your stupid match goes on to last around 35 turns after people who don't want to play against Hissho leave, as expected.)



B. Don't tell everyone how to play your match because you don't want to make it fair. Players didn't join your full game to be forced to ally with you and start attacking someone on the other side of the map ASAP because you can't set down a simple lobby rule.



Hissho, especially the insane min/max build that's been perfected recently, are OP. End of story.



The community should admonish hosts who allow them in public games. It's pathetically antisocial, unless there's a vote taken and the majority of NON HISSHO players agree to play with them

Im wonderd that all people her think that ther opinion iss the only one in the world.

I never see players how leaf a server why a hissoh join...

Simple fact DarkSchemo:

any good Hissho player will have begun invading by turn 30 or so, and by turn 50 will be operating at 1.8x bonus.

and if he is any good, he will continue to aggressively invade and maintain that bonus

Simple fact:You can have a much better economy with other races, long time before the hissoh get any windbonus or bushido.

What bring the hissoh the wind bonus realy.If he get a 20 %percentbonus at first in midgame on a low wind production....you can outrange him in economy long time before, producing more ships, have a higher techlevel, colonizing more systems etc. etc.

To invade in earlygame a system you need 8-20Rounds...with a 7/7 Fleet.Sry, if somebody say thats not be counter make too much mistakes or have the wrong Raceconfigs.

The community should admonish hosts who allow them in public games. It's pathetically antisocial, unless there's a vote taken and the majority of NON HISSHO players agree to play with them

simply lol

Flat out anyone can stop hissho from snowballing their FIDS bonus. Its the same as fighting any other race, the issue at hand is that once they are snowballed, its nigh impossible to win against it, and if you can win it may take hours and hours of smashing into a seemingly endless wave of ships.



it takes 4-12 turns to take a system, usually. More 7 fleets are going to show up every few turns, it may say 20 or whatever when the first ones get there, but its not going to last 20 turns.



Everybody wants to play the game the way they find it fun. Some ways ruin that experience for others. For me, i like to make enormous spheres of influence, i cant do that if im being smashed. I also like to run people over sometimes, their peaceful ways ruin my experience. Sitting and teching in a peaceful galaxy is a giant boring waste of time to me. I can sit and tech in single player. I could kill things in single player also, but its the human randomness and interactions i am looking for.

Good god. There are simple reasons we think you're wrong DarkSchemo:



1. You give no solid reason for your opinion. Any reasons you state are threadbare at best, and full of holes.

a) We've never seen you online, despite your claims of "playing against the best".

b)

To invade in earlygame a system you need 8-20Rounds...with a 7/7 Fleet.Sry, if somebody say thats not be counter make too much mistakes or have the wrong Raceconfigs.

Try adding an invasion destroyer. That's a destroyer with 5-6 invasion modules, and nothing else (basically, a support ship once you started conquering a system, and set tons of ships on 'defense' mode so support ships don't get attacked). That 600-720 invasion value makes it incredibly easy to conquer systems in early-game, which have low defense points. You can build more of these if needed. Replace 8-20 rounds with 2-4.

c) Also, by turn 30, if this rush strat is performed properly, you should have 25-35 ships, equipped with a mix of missiles and kinetics (and 3-5 systems settled). They may not be the greatest quality ships, but quantity matters. And putting 25-35 ships into a system with 1 planet, 3-4 pop makes it very easy to conquer.

If you went pure tech and building focus, you will not have the ships to fight that off (and frankly, most players don't know how to fight a mass swarm of ships off anyways).



2. You ignore the facts we mention about the practicalities of actually playing MP.

a) It's been consistently proven that in MP games, there are poor players who make easy prey.

b) Players leave these games, getting replaced by AI. And as we all know, unless you play on the top 2 difficulty levels (which doesn't happen in MP), the AI is just terribly bad.



3. There's 1 broken combo which makes Hissho ridiculous:

a) The semi-bug where any 'lost' system can be re-conquered in 1 turn (I feel it's a bug anyways)

b) Hissho affinity increases and resets when retaking these systems.



So you grab a system, let the enemy re-take it (by sending all your ships to invade the next system, leaving this one open), and then reconquer it. Right there, you got a 40% FIDS boost.

Basically, if you don't cover every conquered or re-conquered system with a fleet of ships, Hissho can boost FIDS massively. And how many top level combat fleets can you leave sitting around for the 10-20 turns it takes for the system defense to recover? And honestly speaking, it's not hard to build a counter fleet, sent it at that system, destroy the defending fleet, and conquer it.



4. As Kyu said, if its 1 on 1, stopping their FIDS bonus is very possible if you're skilled.

But in a practical MP match, Bushido is OP. And 1 or 2 careless mistakes in leaving systems open can instantly lose you the game (something that won't happen against any other faction).





Unless you can somehow prove that all these statements I made are completely false, I don't see any reason you're right, while Kyu, I, and all the other MP players who agree bushio is OP are wrong.

hmm all players...2 or 3 persons in a forum are not all MP.



Your argument are all theoretik.You will say:

1.the hissoh build without problems in 30!Turns 35 Ships.Thats only possibel if you force all attributes of your race to shipbuilding.even then its hardly possibel...only on best circumstances.

2.The hissoh ships are super powerfuel at this time you will say me and the most people cant counter it yes?How many weapons and defence you can bring under in the first both shipclasses if you including so much invasionmodules that you can invade a system in 2-4 rounds....thats theorycrafting not the real practise.

3.The hissoh has no problem to finace his rush, if he build so fast so many ships he cant colonizing many systems and his econmy iss crap then.His Dust and research iss very low.

4.At round 30 i have researched the 100% wind bonus, the hissoh has a loooong way to this research with this tactic.What bring him the small 20% bonus on his low economy versus this?Nothing.the bushido bring him noting in the earlygame and the earlyer midgame if he use rockets, and he must use rockets for a rush.

5.In earlygame a admiral is more effictively in defense as in offens attributes.With a general you can counter so easy rocketfleets



let us make a example:

in a 8player game with a great galaxy we have 1 hissoh.The hissoh found a easy victim, conquer his 3-4 systems and become in average a 40-60% bonus on his economy over 30rounds.The enemy fleets are dieing long time before he invade all the systems.After he destroyed the victim, he force his fleet versus an new enemy.the bushido iss alreday long time over before he forced his fleet and can attack.The invaded systems are for 10Rounds only crap and cant be really used for anything. Now he meet a good player that forced research and economy from start up.In the best case he has a small advantage in CP or fleetpower, but most of his fleets are very old and crap at this time of the game(round50-60).What iss now overpowered her?His Ecobonus runs out, you dont must stay long versus him before his economy comes back to his small standard level.Your production is now faster and your ships are much earlyer at the front with newest technologie and shipclasses, espically optimized for the aggresors weapons and defense systems.

A aggressor iss evry time in disadvantage in Endles.If the hissoh meet a good player for his early rush his chance to win going down round at round.Or the victim can chat that he are being invaded.You can intervene earlyer and the hissoh has then no chance to get anything.

And now you will say me thats overpowered?I stay to my opinion, its no problem to beat a rushing hissoh.



To your second argument:i dont ignore any facts.

To your third argument:if you let the hissoh do this or going self in this trap it is your mistake, not a bug.