Klaus wrote:
Your advice "If a mod says it is compatible with one version of ES, *only use it with that version*" is crap. If you don't like my alternative suggestion, then at least delete this crap. It is utterly misleading.

I am not sure how familiar you are with the way that ES mods work. An ES mod contains a number of xml files, which are copied from some version of ES and then modified. Suppose a new version of ES comes out, and it contains a new version of that same xml file. Now when a user runs the old mod with the new version, they are loading the old modified xml. The new xml is ignored. So, any new features or bug fixes which are in that file are ignored. These effects can be very obvious (the game may fail to load) or very subtle (a balancing change may no longer appear).



If you use a mod for an old version, with a new version, any number of obvious or subtle changes are possible. It is not realistically possible to prove that any particular mod built for an old version, works 100% with a new version. If you feel this advice is crap, please suggest an alternative.

clericus wrote:
Colored Anomalies is by far the most useful mod that doesn't change game play at all, well, except making it better, easier, and more convenient. It should ABSOLUTELY be part of the base game!

Strongly agree

@Romeo thanks!

Thanks @Ail, I saw you changed the name to AggressiveAI. Yours WILL be the next mod I try!

Now what about those many small mods "out there"? How can I find them?



And do I get it right that a lot of the mods in the Shopping Mall are not compatible with the current version of the game? Since there seems to be no way to revert the automatic updates via steam or to install an older version separately, this reduces the number of available and usable mods severely.



As to the original question posted by Steph'nie: I didn't use any mods for ES up to now, and what is currently available doesn't appeal to me. (Except for ColoredAnomalies and the like, but such minor changes don't deserve the effort of downloading and installing.)



So IMO the question should not be "What do you like most?" but "Why is the choice so restricted?". ES seems to me as an ideal base for an abundance of mods which would improve the replayability very much. And at first sight, it seems to offer a vast terrain for modders because of the many aspects that are easily modifyable. But this is obviously at odds with the automatic updates. So what can we do about that?



Initially, I liked the idea of continually improving the game via G2G, and in a way, I still do. But I also like (as a user, up to now) what mods can offer. And both of them are not easy to reconcile. I think we need some kind of brainstorming here. (Not in the proper sense, of course.)



Continual modification of the vanilla game is clearly not compatible with more than rudimentary modding, as long as there is no communication and understanding between these areas of creativity. I see three principal ways of dealing with that problem:



- The developers could decide that, for the time being, continual improvement of the the vanilla game is much more important than possible contributions by modders. In this case, they should announce that clearly and warn modders accordingly.



- The developers could decide that the time has come when modders could do many more improvements than they themselves do have in the pipe. In this case, they should stop their upgradings and announce this to the modders.



- The developers think that there should be a third way. In this case, this should be worked out.



As it seems, we are only left with the third case (while it's always the devs who decide things like this). Continuing improvement of vanilla and "endless" modding should be made compatible. In this respect, I have some suggestions:



- Modders should very soon be informed about the problems they will currently face with the frequent automatic updates. And they should be told to minimize the number of files in their mods in order to avoid incompatibilities. The current intro to the modding tutorial section does the contrary.



- Concrete informations about changes in possibly modding-relevant files are very useful and should be kept.



- Some of the already existing mods should be incorporated into the vanilla game, and this should be an option for any other mods. If G2G is really meant as a philosophy and not just as a marketing phrase, then it is quite strange that the devs are not interested in this kind of contribution. And even if it was just a marketing phrase, it would be foolish to ignore these opportunities to make it more credible. :-)



- The dev team should think about how they could help modders to keep up with the vanilla upgrades. Some of the existing mods are quite popular, but they involved changes in a lot of files, and if nobody cares for updates, this is all blown in the wind. For the devs, it would be easy to do here what they just did to vanilla. In case of the most popular mods, Amplitude should offer to adjust them to every new vanilla version. Or to give concrete instructions, if there is still someone willing to take them.



Modders can do a lot for the success of such a product and (what concerns me much more :-) for the pleasure that users can enjoy. Many of you will have witnessed what modders did for the 2006 RPG Oblivion. This was possible because there were only very few vanilla updates in the beginning. Amplitude has to make a choice.

Klaus wrote:
Now what about those many small mods "out there"? How can I find them?

There are 2-3 "mini mods" or "micro mods" in this forum. Those authors have decided not to advertise them in the shopping mall, I guess, but you can find them by looking a few pages back in the thread list.

And do I get it right that a lot of the mods in the Shopping Mall are not compatible with the current version of the game? Since there seems to be no way to revert the automatic updates via steam or to install an older version separately, this reduces the number of available and usable mods severely.

I patrol the shopping mall pretty regularly. Each time an expansion pack comes out, I check if any mods are not updated and delete them from the thread. However, I can't think of any "large" "released" mod which has fallen out because of this. Several mods were never released in the first place. Several "large" mods were merged into the main game, such as parts of my older "community mod" and Ail's "AI mods".

- Modders should very soon be informed about the problems they will currently face with the frequent automatic updates. And they should be told to minimize the number of files in their mods in order to avoid incompatibilities. The current intro to the modding tutorial section does the contrary.

This is already done. Please see the thread "modding release notes". For people who are actively modding, this is sufficient information. Of course, if a modder becomes inactive, no amount of information provided by the dev team will magically make that mod compatible with the new version.

- Some of the already existing mods should be incorporated into the vanilla game, and this should be an option for any other mods. If G2G is really meant as a philosophy and not just as a marketing phrase, then it is quite strange that the devs are not interested in this kind of contribution. And even if it was just a marketing phrase, it would be foolish to ignore these opportunities to make it more credible. :-)

As I mentioned, multiple mods have already been incorporated into the base game, when there is consensus that the base game is flawed and the mod is an improvement. However, please note that the dev team has a strong view about the "feel" of the game. So, mods which change the "feel" of the game will probably never be incorporated into the base game. This seems appropriate to me. (One exception is "colored anomalies", but it is possible that the dev *art* team has a view about this.)

In case of the most popular mods, Amplitude should offer to adjust them to every new vanilla version. Or to give concrete instructions, if there is still someone willing to take them.

I have never heard of any dev team anywhere who would update user mods. As I mentioned, for active modders, the current information is considered sufficient, and inactive modders cannot be helped.

Many of you will have witnessed what modders did for the 2006 RPG Oblivion. This was possible because there were only very few vanilla updates in the beginning. Amplitude has to make a choice.

I agree. I have made multiple requests, as have others, for improving the scope of what is moddable. A small number of these requests have been implemented, but the majority have not. On the other hand, the dev team has made huge improvements to the game, specifically rewriting the multiplayer communication and the ability to automate battles with cards and without timers. These are critical to maintaining sales, without which the company may go out of business, and then neither mods nor the base game will be improved. So I think they have chosen correctly.

Good to read that someone takes care of the Shopping Mall and that all of the mods listed should be compatible with the current version of the game. But the latter is not obvious to the reader, and so I got the impression that some of the most interesting mods are no longer compatible.



In your first posting there, you wrote "If a mod says it is compatible with one version of ES, *only use it with that version*." Now several mods are said to be compatible with v. 38 or even an older one. Taking your cited advice, I will not try these mods since I don't see a way tu use e.g. Imperium Aeterna with v. 38 of the game.



I think you should replace this sentence by something like: "All the mods listed here should be compatible with v. 49 of the game."

Klaus wrote:
I think you should replace this sentence by something like: "All the mods listed here should be compatible with v. 49 of the game."

I don't see how I can know that. Certainly I may want that. It is essentially impossible to prove.

Well... unless its posted on their mod page and/or you ask them if its compatible :P and/or test it yourself!

I wrote: "All the mods listed here SHOULD be compatible with v. 49 of the game." This is just what you claimed, davea, and there is no reason to "prove" it.



You further wrote: "Each time an expansion pack comes out, I check if any mods are not updated and delete them from the thread." Are you sure about that? Imperium Aeterna e.g. has not been updated since november. But nevertheless it seems still to be in use and nobody complains about incompatibilities.



Your advice "If a mod says it is compatible with one version of ES, *only use it with that version*" is crap. If you don't like my alternative suggestion, then at least delete this crap. It is utterly misleading.

I am not too sure about mod incompatability, most if not all of the non-standealone mod's should still work.

Please also update/correct your post in the shopping mall.

I agree with Davea, it's the bug fixes that out do mods.



Most mini-mods or ones with simple changes should be relitivly fine.

@davea: The sentence in question IMO is crap because I see no way to use e.g. Imperium Aeterna with v. 38 of the game. Therefore it should be deleted even if there is no alternative you can accept.



Visitors of your mall are interested in mods they can actually use. This is what they should be informed about in your first post. If you don't dare any other comment there, then that's the way it is. But you could do better.



It should be easy to find out if e.g. Imperium Aeterna is still in use. And I think you are aware that it is and therefore didn't delete it from the mall even though it says to be compatible (only?) with v. 38 and has not been updated since november. In such cases we can say - as Igncom1 seems to view in the same way as I do - that the mod is *compatible* with the current version of the game. It is possible to use the mod with the current version. This is what the visitor of your mall is interested in in the first place. And this is what my suggested formulation should say.



In the second place, there might be some minor problems arising that should be mentioned. If one of the XMLs changed by the mod has also been changed by later updates of vanilla, then these latter changes will not be implemented if you use such an old mod. Of course, this is also an interesting information for the shopper in your mall, but not in the first place.



Since the number of mods you present in your mall is not quite overwhelming, it should further be possible to spot possible compatibility probs with the majority of them. If you know which of the XMLs have been subject to changes in a mod (obvious in non-standalone mods) and which of the XMLs have been changed by updates of vanilla since then, you should be able to either conclude that there will be no probs at all or to confine to a great extent where there could be any probs. This seems to me simple enough, and on this basis you should be able to give a sound advice for the shoppers in your first posting.



But apart from your mall: Keeping current mods up with the latest versions of the game is not magic (as you wrote), even if you are not he author of the mod in question. If the devs publicly announce what they changed in all of the relevant XMLs, you can do just the same changes in every mod you are interested in. This can be done by every user of any mod, it can be done, of course, by the authors of any mod, and it could also be done to published mods where the authors are not interested any more but did declare their consent to that. That's basically what I wanted to propose up there.

Klaus; wrote:
Since the number of mods you present in your mall is not quite overwhelming, it should further be possible to spot possible compatibility probs with the majority of them.

I agree this is a good idea. It would be great if anybody, such as you, would spend 5-6 hours per mod to carefully test each of the 10-15 mods listed there, each time there is a new release of ES. Please note that is 50-90 hours, which I personally do not have available. Then you should let the authors know of any incompatibilities you find. For mods which are actively maintained, I am sure they will either update them and put a new release, or update their shopping mall post with compatibility information. For mods which are not actively maintained, you can at least post into their thread about incompatibilities so that other people will be aware, and if they are severe I may remove them from the mall.



I have changed the OP of the mall to soften the sentence about incompatibility. But the key point is, it is awfully hard to prove there is no incompatibility.

Klaus wrote:
If one of the XMLs changed by the mod has also been changed by later updates of vanilla, then these latter changes will not be implemented if you use such an old mod. Of course, this is also an interesting information for the shopper in your mall, but not in the first place.

IMHO that is the main issue.

Most mods will still work but they often will override improvements from vanilla.

At least that was the most common problem I had when updating my mods.

I had to manually merge my files with vanilla-changes so both would work.

Is there an easy way to compare different versions of a file?

Not unless the modder specifies it.

I would like to try this mod is it compatible with ES 1.0.66 ?

case250 wrote:
I would like to try this mod is it compatible with ES 1.0.66 ?

Not really. It might work but it will probably override things that have been changed in regular ES.

As far as I know the latest version has a severe bug where the AI doesn't build any military-ships.