I love Humankind. With the upcoming launch of Civ VII, I see they copied several successful ideas from Humankind, but I'm not excited about how they plan to implement it - specifically the changing cultures, but they separate cultures from rulers and you change rulers, too. I'm not very excited about it.
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing. You'll never be able to win them over. I don't agree with their criticisms, but it is what it is. If there is a Humankind 2, you can count on NOT getting those consumers. You can't convert them. They love to play Abraham Lincoln from the ancient age to the atomic age and they feel it's more realistic?
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing.
Humankind was better than CIV VI, that was hard for a lot of players to admit. Gamers generally hate everything, so long as Sid doesn't go full Blizzard CIV VI will sell. I still have the CIV I tech tree memorized, but Humankind was a breath of fresh air, I hope they release a full and likely last expansion soon so I can throw some money at them. They appear to have also taken the district placement style and level designs from Humankind as well. Changing cultures in Humankind is fun, Sid agrees.
I'm just glad that a juggernaut like Civ is also joining the camp of modular empires, IMO, that's the best thing to appear on Historical 4Xs horizon lately. I do wonder about their execution, it's very much different from what HK does and still sets up players on mostly their own paths, while HK system is more of a global race to get the culture you need or even just block someone else from getting one fitting them. I think both can work well, fingers crossed Civ VII will have at least one wacky one hid behind some extremely specific in-game feat.
I do not think that you can swap leaders throughout the game, just that you can choose your leader and starting civ separate from each other. They definitely at least try to address some of the complaints against HK system, providing some context for changes (leader choice, previous culture, in-game achievements), and it won't be as jarring with fewer ages. People who hate the guts of a whole concept won't be swayed, but those who just prefer the 'old' civ style or were expecting something more grounded in Earth reality (or rather geography) should be happier with that than with HK.
I find it a bit funny that people complain that they should just improve what they had, when Firaxis was reinventing the wheel with virtually every Civ title they published (yes, even III->IV).
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing.
Humankind was better than CIV VI, that was hard for a lot of players to admit. Gamers generally hate everything, so long as Sid doesn't go full Blizzard CIV VI will sell. I still have the CIV I tech tree memorized, but Humankind was a breath of fresh air, I hope they release a full and likely last expansion soon so I can throw some money at them. They appear to have also taken the district placement style and level designs from Humankind as well. Changing cultures in Humankind is fun, Sid agrees.
I think Humankind is better than Civ, but it has a higher threshold of entry than Civ, which has been a problem.
Believing yourself to be the ostensibly eternal incarnation of a continuous civilization, that you essentially manage as an empire, for the entirety of human history, is a lot easier to understand for the layman than the Humankind system of culture layering and civ evolution (even if the latter just is better in my op).
Personally I like that Civ copied Humankind, because I legitimately believe that the integration of civilization evolution and metamorphosis into 4X games is an actual step forward (strat games generally have been struggling with innovating their formulas), but I must admit that it really does look like they just grabbed a simplified version of the humankind system (only 3 eras intead of 6). This might be good, because one of the criticisms of Humankind is that you can't get attached enough to your civ because of quick culture switches, and because of that I myself only play on Endless pace. Still, only having 3 eras is a bold choice.
Also I kinda got over Firaxis copying Amplitude when they essentially
also "drew heavy inspiration" from the Endless Legend district system
for the district system in Civ VI when they released that one.
okay, if you have civ4, boot it up and look at the prepackaged mods (it’s in the scenarios menu). You’ll see Rhyse and Fall. This mod plays on a historical map of earth, adds a mechanic called stability which causes civilizations to collapse, and gives players the ability to switch civilizations. It is a gameplay experience that is truly unique, especially since every civ has a historical victory condition.
And then there is a committed community still adding to the mod, which has now released an even bigger map! Dawn of Civilization, link below.
One of the best things about this mod was the dynamic names. If you captured a city, it could change names to reflect your civilization’s name. This wasn’t just limited to Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul; with the mod even having a mongol name for Rome.
Honestly, it’s worth a try.
Wiki article on Rhyse and Fall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhye%27s_and_Fall_of_Civilization
Dawn of Civilization: https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/rhyes-and-fall-dawn-of-civilization.452/
I'm just disappointed that after 8 years, the best innovations Firaxis could come up with are just ripped straight from Humankind.
I am not surprised. Mechanical innovation in strategy games (and "old" game genres in general) has advanced at a glacial pace. It is just difficult to do more breakthroughs with the hardware we have.
Also strategy games are relatively "niche", and it is very difficult for them to breakout into the mainstream, especially when they are even deeper mechanically (higher barrier of entry). Civ, Starcraft and, very arguably Total War are like the only exceptions. Though there has been growth these last years from Paradox Games, even then, both Paradox Games and Amplitude Studios I'd say haven't broken into the mainstream, but rather just grown the strategy community.
I'd rather have Firaxis rip off Amplitude a 100 times and have new mechanical innovations be advanced into the mainstream for the sake of 4X games as a whole (even if it may be somewhat bitter) than have mainstream strat game stagnate (just look at Starcraft, arguably it's held back the progress of the entire RTS genre by itself). Also I'll keep playing Amplitude because their 4Xs are literally seemingly 5 years ahead of the curve and have almost unparalleled art direction in strat games.
I am astounded they are going so far away from historical accuracy (i don't mean stuff like playing as Teddy Rosevelt from 4000 BC etc), that Egypt can become Mongolia for example. That they would change the "single leader forever" formula was certain, i was hoping it would be a more historical accurate way. Like you could choose from 2-3 new leaders that take your civ in a new direction, that are still Egypt. Like Hatshepsut in the beginnig but an option for the next age will be someone like Nehsi. That would still be a good new way to go, but more historical wheras Humankinds premise was that you could build your civilization however you want.
I think that player just want to feel that their culture is evolving.
In civ VI you see your civilization architecture, units and other evolving. It's a good feeling, and you are happy to lead your Egyptian or Inca from ancient ages to modern age. It's coherent but causes problems such as having modern leaders or cultures that exist in ancient age (it's still funny and those strange situation is a reason to play civ VI for a lot of people because it's fun).
Humankind decided to change this and have a more historical approach (at first glance). But the fact that you can change your culture from Japaneses to Americans just make no sens. It's less historical, and you loose the feeling of leading a civilization from the ancient age to modern age. Also the fact that you change a lot of time of cultures is distubing even more and you lose the root of your civilisation easily. That's so strange. You can't event remember how your allies are.
Humankind is made by a company that i love but... there is too many gameplay problems to say that it's a better game than civ VI
Civ VII seems to address these problems in a more "historical" way. You can make evolved your culture to other that are "similar". And you will change few times. It may be a good way to solves Humankind's problems. I hope for them that it will work and lead the genre in a good way. (my dream is that humankind do a big change to the game like Paradox did with stellaris and make it the best 4x game in the world. Graphics are insane, interfaces are clear, ideas are good. But there is a need to get rid of certain things or change them truly).
I love Humankind. With the upcoming launch of Civ VII, I see they copied several successful ideas from Humankind, but I'm not excited about how they plan to implement it - specifically the changing cultures, but they separate cultures from rulers and you change rulers, too. I'm not very excited about it.
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing. You'll never be able to win them over. I don't agree with their criticisms, but it is what it is. If there is a Humankind 2, you can count on NOT getting those consumers. You can't convert them. They love to play Abraham Lincoln from the ancient age to the atomic age and they feel it's more realistic?
Anyone else have any thoughts on this topic?
You feel it's more realistic
that Babylon transforms to Sweden?
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing.
Humankind was better than CIV VI, that was hard for a lot of players to admit. Gamers generally hate everything, so long as Sid doesn't go full Blizzard CIV VI will sell. I still have the CIV I tech tree memorized, but Humankind was a breath of fresh air, I hope they release a full and likely last expansion soon so I can throw some money at them. They appear to have also taken the district placement style and level designs from Humankind as well. Changing cultures in Humankind is fun, Sid agrees.
Changing cultures in Humankind is boring, Steam charts agrees. Even Civilization III have more players than Humankind.
Show me a turn-based 4X that did manage to surpass Civilization hegemony. Humankind is still pulling the highest numbers out of any of the Amplitude's games, surpasses the direct competitors that it has in Old World and Millenia, and remains relatively close to AoW4, another large title in roughly same area. And they all wallow in the dirt comparing to newer Civ titles, because Sid Meier's spawn became go-to even for people who don't know the genre that well if at all.
If the best way the game media and players can come up with to describe a game is civ-clone, or civ-like, or civ-killer, then it really shouldn't be a surprise that the playerbase is just a portion of Civilization's one (likely the ones who wanted something different from Civ and didn't bounce off from HK being... well, different).
Can we just get a proper summary on how it looks remotely like Humankind? Premade regions? Nope, usual, Civ-like growing city borders, now with a slight twist to the previous formula, but nothing remotely like HK. Unstacking cities? Well, yeah, but not like this either, from what I've seen it's the usual Civ building list but now you actually need to plop them on the map. If anything's close here, it would be Warlock: Master of the Arcane (which predates EL, so take it as you will in context of VI grabbing it directly from Amplitude). Stacking units and unstacking them for combat? This is a strong contender, but even that works as different from HK as it could, no dedicated battlefield and rather than something mandatory it's an optional Army Commander action (Army Commander that levels up instead of their army, btw, something I'd love for HK, but that ship sailed when army limits were removed deep into OpenDevs phase). Then it's swapping culture every once in a while and that summary is about how deep the similarities of this mechanic between Civ VII and HK go, fewer ages, more railroaded swapping system, in-game unlocks to get access to particular cultures. Maybe an event system, because that too was mentioned, but claiming that's HK's trademark when Paradox Grand Strategies exist is shaky at best.
EDIT: I'm sorry for the outburst, but this is the same stuff that we had to sit through when everyone and their dog said HK is just Civ VI rip-off. And it won't get me any less annoyed just because I happen to really enjoy HK.
I love Humankind. With the upcoming launch of Civ VII, I see they copied several successful ideas from Humankind, but I'm not excited about how they plan to implement it - specifically the changing cultures, but they separate cultures from rulers and you change rulers, too. I'm not very excited about it.
But it appears alot of Civ players don't like the changing cultures thing. You'll never be able to win them over. I don't agree with their criticisms, but it is what it is. If there is a Humankind 2, you can count on NOT getting those consumers. You can't convert them. They love to play Abraham Lincoln from the ancient age to the atomic age and they feel it's more realistic?
Anyone else have any thoughts on this topic?
honestly i trust friaxis more than i trust humankind at this point. hk has essentially died and they're doing nothing about it so i see this as civ stealing back from hk since hk took a ton of stuff from civ ie (monoploies, pollution, district system, ect) dunno if there is that many people really that made sense now civ is once again alone in the 4x genre
Thimoclesse wrote: Civ VII seems to address these problems in a more "historical" way. You can make evolved your culture to other that are "similar"
Though I'm afraid what Firaxis considers to be "historical", many things shown in trailers just feel wrong (Why are Hatshepsut and Amina recommended for playing a historical Aksum? and so on...)
Civ 6 was the first entry in Civ that I skipped. I played 1-5. A short while ago Civ 6 was on a 95% off sale - and I still thought it was a bad idea to get it. Civ should go back to 4 and improve from there (it had some issues in late game and the influence conquering kinda ruined it for me, but otherwise it probably had the best foundation in the series). Maybe keep the hex map. I don't know if copying from humankind is a move in the right direction.
I mean... I bought Humankind to support the studio that makes Endless Space, but I can't really bear to play it. I even was in beta and at the start I thought it would be a ~98% approval game, loved by everyone. I loved it at that point. All they really had to do was just coast it into the goal (with tried and true). People would have complained that it "didn't improve on the formula", but it would have worked. And then they added combat and I was like "10%, that's not a game for me". Which is, of course, their right. They can restrict the pool of potential customers as much as they want. They can make it less appealing for the masses to be able to fully realize their unique vision for it. It's just... then you get what you get.
Dear God, the level of ignorance and cognitive dissonance is off the charts in these discussions. Firaxis copied Humankind? To paraphrase Potato McWhisky: "if you can find me another 4x game that gets more than 10K players a day then you can talk to me about Firaxis copying other games." The fact is that the entire 4x industry stands on the shoulders of Civilization, the franchise. Everyone, including Amplitude, has copied Firaxis.
If the "intellectuals" who speak so smugly about Firaxis had any ability to think critically, they'd realize that a singular feature, even if it were rotely copied by Firaxis, does not an entire copied game make.
However, we know from the various previews and dev live streams that Firaxis' civ-changing mechanic will play *very* different from Humankind's, just as Civ VI's districts are very different from Endless Legend's district building system. Nobody accused Firaxis of copying EL because of districts.
How many mechanics did Humankind borrow from Civ? Too numerous to list because Firaxis practically made them commonplace.
But all of this is really besides the point because, for anyone who has been paying attention for the last 3-4 years it is very obvious that Firaxis and Amplitude have very friendly relations that goes beyond professional courtesy. When Humankind was on the verge of launching, Firaxis had come off a hugely successful rolling out of its New Frontier Pass, but when NFP concluded Firaxis went dark on social media even though the devs had hinted that more content was incoming. Humankind launched to middling reviews but Firaxis gave them months and months of space. While updating Humankind, Amplitude rolled out its community challenges to the game. Later on Firaxis would follow suit on its own monthly challenges, something they'd never done before. I'll go so far as to say that Firaxis and Amplitude devs have been collaborating and exchanging ideas through back channels. In many ways Humankind was a kind of test bed for both devs to innovate ideas in the 4x space. Needless to say, it is beyond petty to think Firaxis needs to copy anyone, or that Amplitude literally owns a gameplay mechanic. By this logic, Sega's Sonic "copied" Mario because jumping on an enemy defeats it. So go ahead Civ IV and V fanboys, by all means continue to hate on Firaxis while you stagnate with the same game you've been playing for 10+ years, your measly opinions do not matter nor do they change the facts that Firaxis is a giant in the 4x space, that they've been so cordial toward Amplitude is a testament to their quality as a developer. Civ VII is going to sell like hotcakes regardless of what you say.
RexBellator wrote: Dear God, the level of ignorance and cognitive dissonance is off the charts The fact is that the entire 4x industry stands on the shoulders of Civilization, the franchise. Everyone, including Amplitude, has copied Firaxis.
From what I remember, it's not. Currently "Warlords" comes into my mind. It's more fantasy related and it was released before Civilization I, I'm sure. 4X has it's roots to be found in boardgames, or even before by play-per-mail games (no, not email). By lack of time for to dig in my brain even further, I post a wiki link this place: List of 4X video games
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