I don't think you take economic development into account. The player develops the economy throughout the Era and at the end of the Era the dude quickly builds units. We also don't know if players will move into it immediately after unlocking the next Era. Perhaps they will try to get as many Era Stars as possible to get more Fame.

Yes, a faction might prolong advancing into a new Era but I dont think the AI is waiting at all at this time + the player is also heavily motivated to move as quickly as possible as the later you go the less choice there will be remaining on which culture to take.

Economic advancement can only reduce the production time at the best of cases - the most time-consuming segment is research.

And placing units at the rear-end of a tech tree cuts two ways: it will always delay occurrence of the unit in the game compared to placing it early but it also only allows upgrade of the units when the era is over. So you are playing an ear with anachronistic units until the end of the era when you get the upgraded unit...which is anachronistic again in 5 turns

Ideally I would have packaged the base unit upgrades into a single tech right at the beginning of each era + some unit techs requiring special resources in the mid-era and that is it

But currently (and in most other games) each unit gets their own tech which makes concentrating them in a single segment of a tech tree problematic ... still better then to have chariots at the end of the ancient phase - I mean these guys were the tanks of the ancient era from Hittites to Egypt and some of the most well-known ancient empires were built on their backs - empires the last of which went down with the bronze-age collapse and by the start of the classical era they were a non-factor. At least position them in the mid-era tech-wise :)

Zumwalt wrote:

Outdated units can be upgraded.

If you move the units to the beginning of the Era, it will increase the strength of the players who came out in the next era.

I think that if a player needs military force, he will purposefully study the necessary technologies with special units. And then it doesn't matter where the necessary technology is.

Yes, but they cannot be upgraded without the tech being researched first: hence the problem that era defining units are located at the end of the era tech tree

The increase in strength is lessened if all heavy units are available in mid instead of late tech - everything gets shifted so there is no relative advantage or disadvantage

The issue is not military force par say: even scouts can function quite well as a force if there are enough of them and have some exp. The issue here is the introduction of highly era specific units in Ancient and Classical era: and if the tech tree of later eras will be designed this way maybe all of the later eras as well

Chariots are by no means late-era units - they should e obsolete by Classical era

Praetorian guard is a tricky one but in this context they basically represent legionaries for Rome. Yes the Praetorian guards did not enter service in large numbers up until the late Roman empire and the classical age has arguably ended with the split of East and Western Rome but then again: this is an era-specific culture unit it should not be sitting at the end of the tree unless we want to see praetorian cropping up in early-mid middle ages :)

Maybe the players will target late-era militarily units purposefully in order to field them in their respective eras but I haven't seen any such behavior in videos and on myself AND if this is done, then economy is neglected and the production of the units will take longer so there is no winning of this race for time and there is also no need to have this race

Example of what I suggesting is quite alive and kicking in Medieval and Early Modern Era:

- Base units of that era are available as starting Tier 1 tech - in case of Medieval tree we even have a coupling of pike and archer which is great (juts down on time to research these base units individually)

- Heavy units are placed in the second tier of the tech tree: knights on foot and mounted (not at the end of the era) - they are defining units of that era but are heavy units so tier 2 is perfect

- No units at all at tier 3 for Medieval and Early Modern era with a single exception: Man o War which is an upgrade of a unit available in tier 1 so is also fine :)

Now lets take a look at Ancient and Classical Era tech tree where the issue I mentioned is present:

In case of Chariots, they should be moved up to tier 2 or even folded into the existing tech there and activated together with scouts and wheel preferably placed into Tier 1 as pre-req

Praetor could simply replace the swordsmen at tier 1 or switch places with Conquest to make it a heavy era specific unit just like knights in Medieval era

All ships in Ancient and Classical units should bu bounced a tier earlier and preferably merged with existing techs such as fishing to not waste time and bog down naval expansion further then it already is due to trade geography etc... wrote an entire thread on that

This is not only important for immersion sake but the AI will also have huge difficulties if units are spread out like this and split into so many techs that are either military or economic in nature

In case of EL it took a long time for the team to get the AI script to handle armies with multiple unit types and there were only 3 unit types there. Here we are looking at dozens of units with unique faction units at each era at varying locations in the tech tree: even if the player can find a way to make use of chariots in the current tech tree in Ancient age by mid-maxing their empire the AI will certainly not be able to do that sort of magic and will be running around with chariots in medieval age if at all if the system is not ensuring easier access

Technologies are divided into eras (early, middle, late) and when/were <insert unit> becomes unlocked can be argued in two primary ways... historical... or functional. 

Historically, a culture's iconic or emblematic unit may have came about later during it's reign thus it is proper for it to unlock later within the tech. tree. My knowledge of such is limited, but I am sure more knowledgeable members of the community could make a strong case here. 

Functionally, units that unlock later in the technology tree hold up better within the next era. 

For example:

 -  The Zhou's ancient Zanche chariot (28 str.) replacement comes late within the tech. tree, yet only 4 of the 15 classical units overpower it. 

 -  Rome's classical Praetorian Guard (30 str.) is just as powerful as the Aztec's medieval Jaguar Warrior (33 str.) when taking into account Tactical Superiority.

Allowing generic and emblematic units to unlock late within in era functions as a bridge which closes the gap between the strength differences in eras. It is also another choice a player make when selecting their next culture ... to be strong right out of the gate (like the Huns/Mongols) ... or focus on other areas before leading up to taking advantage of their emblematic unit. 

I would like to note that units seen in Lucy were fundamentally unbalanced. Such imbalance make it hard to justify stating that, "all units tech. (must) be allocated to the early or mid segment of an era..." as the devs have ample opportunity to adjust units before release. I would rather not set arbitrary limits on unit unlocks which could be avoid with planning and care. 

The primary issue with Ai utilizing some types of units during Lucy was strategic resources as the AI either did or did not have them. This reflected in the units it could produce yet stronger era units typically required many more strategic than the Ai could collect. Players had a large advantage here as they could focus down particular resources in order to produce more resource reliant units. 

Tainted wrote:

Technologies are divided into eras (early, middle, late) and when/were <insert unit> becomes unlocked can be argued in two primary ways... historical... or functional. 

Historically, a culture's iconic or emblematic unit may have came about later during it's reign thus it is proper for it to unlock later within the tech. tree. My knowledge of such is limited, but I am sure more knowledgeable members of the community could make a strong case here. 

Functionally, units that unlock later in the technology tree hold up better within the next era. 

Allowing generic and emblematic units to unlock late within in era functions as a bridge which closes the gap between the strength differences in eras. It is also another choice a player make when selecting their next culture ... to be strong right out of the gate (like the Huns/Mongols) ... or focus on other areas before leading up to taking advantage of their emblematic unit. 

I would like to note that units seen in Lucy were fundamentally unbalanced. Such imbalance make it hard to justify stating that, "all units tech. (must) be allocated to the early or mid segment of an era..." as the devs have ample opportunity to adjust units before release. I would rather not set arbitrary limits on unit unlocks which could be avoid with planning and care. . 

My argument is both functional and historical

Yes unique units can hold up in later eras as well in some cases but the next era also holds a unique unit which should hold up even better - there is a continuous progression here within which if we are shifting one advantage it is done at the cost of a later advantage and thus not a smart choice.

Meaning: it is better to take and large advantage earlier and thus have it for longer then having it smaller advantage later and thus for a short time

There are other functional issues:

1. AI is not great at targeting long term goals with complex trees and will have a hard time getting to point where it seems like its progression and decision make sense

e.g: it will field chariots in Medieval age if at all

2. Ships open up a whole dimension for the game that needs to be deepened not closed off - this is a long story but ships should be activated much earlier in my opinion

3. The time to research doubles with each tier which is increasingly steep.To reach a tier 3 unit under this conditions takes minimum 7 tier 1 tech research time (1 for Tier 1, 2 for Tier 2 and 4 for Tier 3). Targeting such a unit is a huge investment in time that will considerably delay economic advancement and I find it difficult to imagine someone would do that instead of leaving these techs to the end when the era is practically over

Yes historically most of the unique units make no sense in the subsequent era but there is another problem: in the next era there is already a new unique unit that should be utilized. As with such games it is normal to have liberty on historical accuracy of course but if the remedy is simple, is smart from AI coding and game-flow perspective and is already being done for half of the eras, there shoudl be no issue applying it

Yes the units will surely be rebalacned that is why I didnt get into the topic of these third tier units holding up or not later

I would be down with emblematic units being at the end of an era if they were dominant across both their initial and the subsequent era historically (which is increasingly rare)  OR if they have a low-tier variant right at the beginning of that era (like with muskets).

My main concern is to have Ancient and Classical era both feeling appropriate in regards of fielded units and minimizing their spill over to subsequent eras

e.g.: If there was a base chariot unit at tier 1 and a heavy chariot at Tier 3 that would probably fly better or legionaries at Tier 1 and Praetorians at Tier 3 - though to be fair the Swordsmen do look like legionaries and seem to fill that role

In these cases most tier 3 units would be skipped and that would be fine: there would be emblematic Tier 1 units marching across the map within the appropriate era

Considering all of the above I admit the title can be misleading: there are cases where placing a unit at tier 3 even if emblematic to the era makes a lot of sense and my main concern is with base (non culture specific) units such as the first combat ship, and chariot at tier 3

Much of the problems with units in later eras seems to originate from the steep research curve across the tiers: the player can easily slip into a new era with only 1-2 tier 2 techs being researched from the previous one even if they are doing very well which is bound to cause shifted units across the eras

Zolobolo wrote:

I would be down with emblematic units being at the end of an era if they were dominant across both their initial and the subsequent era historically (which is increasingly rare)  OR if they have a low-tier variant right at the beginning of that era (like with muskets).

My main concern is to have Ancient and Classical era both feeling appropriate in regards of fielded units and minimizing their spill over to subsequent eras

e.g.: If there was a base chariot unit at tier 1 and a heavy chariot at Tier 3 that would probably fly better or legionaries at Tier 1 and Praetorians at Tier 3 - though to be fair the Swordsmen do look like legionaries and seem to fill that role

In these cases most tier 3 units would be skipped and that would be fine: there would be emblematic Tier 1 units marching across the map within the appropriate era

... my main concern is with base (non culture specific) units such as the first combat ship, and chariot at tier 3

Much of the problems with units in later eras seems to originate from the steep research curve across the tiers: the player can easily slip into a new era with only 1-2 tier 2 techs being researched from the previous one even if they are doing very well which is bound to cause shifted units across the eras

Having an emblematic unit which unlocks late be dominant over the rest of its era as well as the entirety of the next is quite a large ask. Each unit should have its window of opportunity to be a terror on the battlefield, but only to such an extent. 

Generic units can only ever be soo good without fundamentally making emblematic units irrelevant. I absolutely love that the amount of combat relevant generic units is different for each era as it allows for the potency of particular emblematic units to shine. 

The classical era retains the lowest number of generic units yet allows some ancient emblematic units prolonged relevancy... exactly as Zolobolo had desired... "[Zolobolo] would be down with emblematic units being at the end of an era if they were dominant across both their initial and the subsequent era." However this contradicts their next statement by mentioning that their "main concern is to have Ancient and Classical era both feeling appropriate in regards of fielded units and minimizing their spill over to subsequent eras." 

While I agree that the generic chariot (23 str.) is not a fantastic unit overall, it is still provided a window to dominate the ancient along with the early classical era. Despite cultures progressing into the next era, advanced technology must be researched, strategic resources extracted, and production/money allocated to fielding next era units which provides a window of relevancy. The earliest classical units possibly fielded against generic chariots consist of swordsmen (80 ind, 1 iron), Shotelai (80 ind. 1 iron), Hoplites (160 ind, 1 copper), Immortals (160 ind., 1 copper), or Hunnic Hordes (160 ind, 1 horse). If facing a culture without an applicable emblematic listed above or access to iron, the relevancy of the generic chariot is only extended further if mounted combat is needed to counter them, 

The pace of research is and will continue to be a primary concern as it influences so much within Humankind. As the cost of technology increases with each level, units that are unlocked later are prone to being utilized less or having a tighter relevancy window. However this can be planned for and taken into account when settling outposts, developing quarters, and managing population to ensure strategic goals of utilizing a strong late era unit. 

Each type of resource factors into the overall strength of a culture and subsequently influences the quantity, strength, and timing of units. Cultures will develop according to their terrain thus some will be able to produce faster, field more units, or have more advanced units. No single culture could have an advantage in every aspects too soon thus it is unreasonable to assume an opposing culture does not have a weakness to leverage. 

I rather enjoy cultures being able to advance into the next era without completing an era's technologies. Sure this allows min-maxing an bee-lines as it has been stated earlier in this thread, yet it can quickly get increasing costly in science and turns to research later technologies. Thus bee-lining later technologies can be detrimental to the economics of a culture in favor of military interests (or visa versa) which is a critical choice I believe players should be allowed to decide. I'm sure units which come later in an era can be worth such a cost, but not everyone should need to pay it to remain relevant. 

Tainted wrote:
The classical era retains the lowest number of generic units yet allows some ancient emblematic units prolonged relevancy... exactly as Zolobolo had desired... "[Zolobolo] would be down with emblematic units being at the end of an era if they were dominant across both their initial and the subsequent era." However this contradicts their next statement by mentioning that their "main concern is to have Ancient and Classical era both feeling appropriate in regards of fielded units and minimizing their spill over to subsequent eras." 

Correct: if a unit was utilized across multiple eras I am all down with it being left to tier 3 tech as it is still consistent: it does not actualyl sill over as it belongs to the later era as much as the current one - this is very rarely the case though and is very much not the case of either chariots or Praetorians. Chariots were one of the most emblematic units of the Ancient Era and despite havign a very long trackrecord they were practically useless by Ancient era

But I was wrong on Praetorians overall upon detailed insepction:

1. Praetorians are not a unique unit type but an upgrade of base Swordsmen which is the Tier 1 equivalent within the same era - this make the Praetorians located on a fitting place mechanically (just like with muskets in Early Modern Era) as they dont necesseraly need pop + time/money to bring to the field but existign units can be upgraded into them

2. Thanks to culture personalisation the swordsmen for Romans are actually looking like legionaries which serves as a nice tie into the later Praetorian unit and provides the Romans their emblematic unit by simply changing the appearance of sowdsmen. Since updgraded units tend to have some EXP already it is double sweet that legionaries can be "promoted" into Praetorians:)

Yes, Praetorians were not a later iteration of legionaries and Praatorians were non-existent from the start of the middle-ages but thanks to the above two points I am down with their tech-tree location. Would probably have allowed upgrade of Swordsmen to Praetorians only if they are of level 2 experience and not allow production of the unit but is fine like this

Now, if only chariots and the first two ships could be moved one tech-tier earlier in Ancient Era or Era progression made slower/tech cost scaleup made less steep all would be right in the world :)

How abouth this to clarify such cases?:

When selecting a new culture the unique unit could display:

1. Which base unit it replaces OR:

2. Which base unit can be upgraded to it (in case it is an advanced version of such a unit)

This of course assuming that all uniqu untis are either replacing an existing base unit or are a more advanced version of them

FlamingKetchup wrote:
Tier 3 Units will easily beat previous Era units. And again, Industry cost of Units is negligible.

Yes on 1:1 combat. But that is not the calculation in the game. The time to get the unit on the map is key.

Tier 3 unit takes (in a typcial scenario) 2+4+8=14 turns to reach and needs to be then produced which can be sped up but since the player has been wasting 14 turns researching only military tech, their economy will have a considerable disadvantage compared to those who just avoided tier 3 or even tier 2 for as long as possible (untill it is reduced to 1-2 turns to get)

The enemy on the other hand takes 2 turns for tier 1 unit, and then takes 7 or more low-tier techs durng the same time. Most of these will of course be techs that boost economy, and a capital can easy crank out the tier 1 units in 2 turns tops leading to an army of 3 tier 1 units in 6 turns witohuth buyout. If enemy buys uinits its relative advantage is even higher as it is economically stronger due to all the tech (and era progression).

The opposition can at this point even take tier 3 unit(s) from previous era (1-2 turns research) and just mass-produce that as mentioned above they do hold up in some cases. They dont need to hold up to tier 3 units of the next era as the other player will not have time to reach that era before everything is snatched away and evne if they do the opposition can jump era and start cranking out Tier 1 units from the next era

If the reasearch cost of tier 1units of an era is 1 unit then tier 3 units take minimum 7 units + dependencies. This is too much to say it is a simple decision that can be planned. The downside of doing that is prohibitively large

Zolobolo wrote:

The time to get the unit on the map is key.

Tier 3 unit takes (in a typcial scenario) 2+4+8=14 turns to reach and needs to be then produced which can be sped up but since the player has been wasting 14 turns researching only military tech, their economy will have a considerable disadvantage compared to those who just avoided tier 3 or even tier 2 for as long as possible (untill it is reduced to 1-2 turns to get)

Cultures are not obligated to follow the same tech path. Each route has it's own advantages and disadvantages yet it is too early to tell if any path is better then the rest. 

I would like to specifically note within your "2+4+8 = 14 turns" example that a culture bee-lining a late era unit tech is not helpless or disadvantaged as your leading other community members to believe. 

Technologies leading up to a late era unit typically unlock earlier units (along with other goodies) which can be produced and utilized in the mean time. 

Rome must research swordsmen (Standing Army) before acquiring Praetorian Guard (Imperial Power). Bee-lining ancient chariots unlocks either archers/EUs at carpentry, or scout cavalry/EU at Horsemanship which are not junk units. Even bee-lining the late early modern units (Musketeer & Rotiskenrakehte) will take a culture through halberdiers, mortars, and/or arquebusiers to keep them in the game before fielding them.

Even if a late era unit takes a while coming out, they do not need to be used for offensive purposes. 

It takes troops time to march across territories which can provide time for research and production prior to their arrival. If the aggressor feels they cannot take a city without siege, additional turns are bought while they prepare. 

Even if a culture only researches the minimum military tech within an era and switches to economic technologies instead, it still takes time for those economic benefits (infrastructures, quarters, etc.) to accumulate in an advantage (as well as being constructed). Having a militarist as a neighbor is not ideal to peacefully or rapidly develop an economy as precautions such as fort and garrisons are needed keep their quarters and infrastructures under their control. Such investments can drastically slow down an economic player... so it is not all greener on the other side. 

Humankind is shaping up to be an aggressive game but that does not mean cultures will be aggressive 100% of their turns. Quarters and infrastructures are also needed to support the war effort and allow a culture to transition into the next age quickly. There are not enough military or expansionist fame stars alone to ensure a quick transition... so (at some point) a culture will have some down time to consolidate holdings. 

Having the ancient and classical boats become available late within their era is actually to their benefit. The power structure for naval units is total different then land units as only cultures interested in developing early naval power will bother researching them. Land oriented cultures will put-off researching boat and water-tech until needed for colonizing across oceans.