Zolobolo wrote:

Now the era progression is no driven by rsearch progression (directly) in this game, but this also means that it can be faster then research progression (and it genreally seems to be faster in the beta at least) + each time a faction progresses to a new era, all the techs remaining from the previous eras that have not yet been researched will typcially be researched first and thus the probabiltiy of anachronistic units dancing around in later eras increases dramatically

This is because the pacing is off and needs balancing. You can always delay picking a new culture until you have finished researching what you wanted, you will even get more fame for that. As for anachronistic units, see my later point.

Example: The Praetorian Guard unique unit for Romans is only available 3 techs into the Classical are at the last phase. With reasearch time doubling with each phase this means that evne if a Roman player prioratizes its unique unit rgiht off the bat it will likely take >14Turns to get to simpyl unlock that unit! Add to this the production time and we are easily looking at >20 turns before one of the most iconic classical era unit can even hit the field while a faction generaly seems o progress into a new ear within 25-35 Turns!

You would still need to get through this tech to research twohanded swordsmen in medieval era, so you will still end up getting it even if it is later in medieval, you don't lose access to emblematic units like you do with quarters. However that is not to say they could be moved over to conquest so that they are available early, but this is not the case for every single unit, as it can easily break balance.

Perhaps even moving Praetorian Guard one tech forward would break it since swordsmen that you get from Standing Army directly upgrade into them, so you could skip making them entirely and just beeline the stronger unit that is 4 turns away, which makes me think they are in their place. Swordsmen have 25 combat strength, Praetorian Guard has 30, BUT, this isn't taking into account their trait which allows them to give flanking to any of their allied units by just standing beside enemy unit (no need to stand directly opposite), so effectively just 2 praetorians boost their combined combat strength to 35 if they are positioned next to each other while attacking, which is equal to medieval twohanded swordsmen, this also puts them as effectively second highest combat strength unit in the era, moving them forward is balance breaking.

Simply leave buildigns and other progression items to the end (most expensive) segment of a tech tree and position all units (inluding ships in the early and mid segment. Buildings are typcially not that era specific to be missed and are also not wandering around on the map among modern buildings with spears :)

And force peaceful/economic boom playstyle into wasting research on military units they don't intend on using? This game isn't only about war. Most of industry infrastructures let you pick up military units anyway, including strategic resource techs. As for "spearmen walking around modern buildings", this won't the case because of how spread out military units are. You would literally have to miss out on saltpeter exploitation to not be able to build arqebusiers, and even if you are not focusing on military, you would still get it to perhaps trade it away to someone.

Salterius wrote:
And force peaceful/economic boom playstyle into wasting research on military units they don't intend on using? This game isn't only about war.

If economic boomers dont want to use the units they dont have to but not combining the two more forces players targeting advanced tier 2 units to only concentrate on military units

If these are always combined you could always decide on the spot what you need and most tech would not e inherently economic or military unit only

This is just an idea of course and a less effective measure overall

My main proposal is to move activation of all base unit types to Tier 1 or 2 of the tech tree. Units should only go into Tier 3 if they are upgrades to Tier 1 unit from same era. This is to avoid the shorter upgrade path from tier 2 to tier 3 that you have also mentioned above as to ensure that era specific units are not made too difficult to get within their respective era

Zolobolo wrote:

Yes already noticed this above and thus Praetorian's are aligned with the tech trees of later eras and are fine by me (first I thought they are unique unit type as they didn't replace anything directly in thetech tree)

I am only arguing for Chariots and Ships to be moved forward at this point

Chariots are the same story, they are 24 combat strength with charge so that makes them effectively 27 combat strength, that beats classical era swordsmen.

Zolobolo wrote:

If economic boomers dont want to use the units they dont have to but not combining the two more forces players targeting advanced tier 2 units to only concentrate on military units

If these are always combined you could always decide on the spot what you need and most tech would not e inherently economic or military unit only

This is just an idea of course and a less effective measure overall

My main proposal is to move activation of all base unit types to Tier 1 or 2 of the tech tree. Units should only go into Tier 3 if they are upgrades to Tier 1 unit from same era. This is to avoid the shorter upgrade path from tier 2 to tier 3 that you have also mentioned above as to ensure that era specific units are not made too difficult to get within their respective era

They are mostly combined. As I stated, chariots are effectively stronger than classical era infantry, so having them where they are makes sense, once you get them you can pretty much use them for combat in classical era, I don't remember if they get upgraded into horsemen, though, but you can still effectively use late era units against early units of the next era.

As for "shorter upgrade path" scout rider unit does not upgrade directly into chariot, they upgrade into horsemen in classical era, and both of them have distinctly different strategic resource requirements, with chariot costing extra copper to make.

Zolobolo wrote:

Yes - just noticed that in Ancient era tier 3 is more then double the amount of resource cost then Tier 2 which makes it even harder to prioritize in the beginning

Yes I like the fame system in general and would be cool if there is a good reason to postpone jumping into a new era as I like to enjoy the current one and fill it out. There is a competition going on though and it is very tempting to jump an era at least when the other cultures start taking away your choices

Still I am down with tech tree being a counter-balance for rushing ahead in eras, would just like to have base era specific units (non-upgrades) not be introduced at the very end of an era

For example: I dont mind archers spilling over to the next era as those are one of the few unit types that didnt really see much of a change across the eras and thus are not anachronistic in Classical era - they fit in just fine. Chariots were obsolete by the time larger horses were bred and cultures started riding them (in this regards, chariots superseded horsemen at least in combat application)

Will check out what if a player prioritizes chariots and tries to push these out in Ancient Era (where they ought to be especially considering that not less then 3 cultures have their special units based on the tech)

1. Yes, because chariots are the strongest unit of that era and balancewise it makes sense to lock them behind a late era tech.

2. That is the risk you must take in this game, this is the risk-reward system.

3. On the topic of anachronism. The game is not a full on historical simulator where everything exists up to a certain point. It is moreso a 'what if' scenario game where you can still have certain things be missplaced.

4. Chariots are very situational. You may not have access to the strategics to build them, so prioritizing them each game is not an option.

Narcisse wrote:
In this sort of game, era are not a red line which make a tech directly obsolete when you cross it.

Indeed but this game puts much more emphasis on immersion with the buildings, icons, empire names and leaders all reflecting a specific culture and age

In a normal CIV game I would care but am also not playing those for the same reason :)

In this case I find it a shame if chariots (and ships) would remain like this and especially if other eras would e re-balance/balanced like this

Its a good point about chariots being used after the bronze-age collapse but it was rare and not effective at all. E.g.: the Persians were using it more out of tradition and despite having numerical advantage and having heavy infantry of their own they got creamed by the Macedonians (though they did use the chariot yes with relative success even thouhg it was a heavy modified version of what was used in the antique)

Heavy cavalry would likely be too early for Ancient Era - I would imagine these as follows:

1. First combat cavalry in Tier 1 Classical Age (we have larger horses bred by then)

2. Heavy cavalry as an upgrade for the above at tier 3 Classical Age

3. Knights at Tier 2 Medieval Age (as is already) to upgrade these

But I am totally OK with current cocnept of having cavalry in Tier 2 Classical Age and then Knights at Tier 2 Medieval Age - I am sure there are some culture specific heavy cavalry updates in there to fill in the gap and provide heavy cavalry in between

Salterius wrote:
They are mostly combined. As I stated, chariots are effectively stronger than classical era infantry, so having them where they are makes sense, once you get them you can pretty much use them for combat in classical era, I don't remember if they get upgraded into horsemen, though, but you can still effectively use late era units against early units of the next era.

Not (yet) for Horsmenship: provides only scout riders no economic benefit - but we would skip this tech anyhow when going for chariots as it would just take forever otherwise: better to go with Carpentry which does provide economic benefit

Thing is we also need other techs to get charriots on the road (they also provide) ;) We need Bronze working as well as Domestication - will show the scenario below

You take the concept of the Era too literally. In real history, there were no watersheds between the Eras. In Europe, the Bronze Age began 10,000 BC, and in Mesoamerica it lasted until the arrival of the Europeans.

Thinking on Chariots being too situational due ot their strategic resources requirement and ignoring the tech position now - it does seem very resrictive cnsidering here are 3 cultures that rely on this unit for heir special

It does feel right to have a higher strategic resource requirement then spearmen and once the AI gets better it will likely be feasable to actualyl trade for the copper in Ancient era already (currently the AI does not seem to manage to extract that resrouce so early). Once trading is ongoing it also feels right to have chariots for nations that are either very lucky as for their region or are actvie in trade as historicalyl the unit was utilized in or very close to trading hubs

So... what if the amount of strategic resources were swapped around and charriot requiring 2 Horses and 1 Copper? Would make sense as far  as visual represenation goes for the horses :) + they would not need more Cooper then a battalion on spearmen

Or: Just have 1 Horse and 1 Copper requirement - this is still 1 horse more then for spearman

The latter could also be a mechanic: advanced units would gradually increase in the number and type of strategic resrouces they require making trade increasingly more important:

Mounted:

Ancient

  Scout Rider: 1 Horse

  Chariot: 1 Copper; 1 Horse (from 2 Copper; 1 Horse)

Classical

  Horsemen: 2 Horse

  War Elephants: 2 Copper (elephants do nto make much sense as strategic resoruces so I agree if they dont plan to have it)

  Upgraded Horsemen (if any): 1 Copper; 2 Horse

Medieval

  Knight: 1 Iron; 2 Horse

  Upgraded knight: 2 Iron; 2 Horse

Early Modern

  Dragoon (new base unit): 1 Iron; 2 Horse; 1 Saltpetre

Infrantry:

Ancient

  Spearmen: 1 Copper

  Upgraded warrios: 2 Copper

Classical

  Swordsmen: 1 Iron; 1 Copper (from 1 Iron)

  Upgraded Swordsem (e.g: Praetorians): 1 Iron 2 Copper (from 1 Iron)

Medieval (we have a gap here in terms of strategic resoruces due to the transtion)

  Great Swordsmen: 2 Iron

 Early Modern

  Arquebusiers: 1 Iron; 1 Saltpetre (dont know if they need iron)

  Musketeers: 1 Iron; 2 Saltpetre (dont know if they need iron) 

Nturalyl it would be very imporant in general to signla the strategic resource requirement of the units on culture selection screen so that hte plaer can make an informed decision on their next culture depending on their current access to resoruces

Throwing in my 2 cents: I see both sides here, and agree with both.  This issue kind of comes down to how the devs choose to balance the cultures.  

Making all emblematic units researchable early is easier to balance.  Emblematic units are kind of the "baseline uniqueness" of each faction, so giving them to the player soon after a culture is adopted is a great way of getting the player "immersed" in that culture, letting them FEEL like they are now this culture that they have picked.  If you give the player their EU too late in the era, then they don't get enough time to use it, and the novel effect of being this new culture is lost.

HOWEVER: The better (imo) option would be to play it by ear to the balancing of each culture.  When the player advances to a different era and becomes a different culture, the player needs to FEEL the change.  This can be done by the culture's EU, unique techs, unique mechanics, or unique buildings.  If it is decided that one or all cultures should get their EU later, then SOMETHING unique to that culture needs to be attainable early in the era, to keep the player's sense of advancement and cultural uniqueness intact.  Even more ideally, would be that this change is different depending on the culture or even on the "culture type" (economic, militaristic, scientific, etc).  For example, militaristic cultures get their EU earlier in the era, economic cultures could get a unique eco building earlier, scientific cultures unlock a unique tech earlier, etc.

The baseline message here is that each culture needs to feel unique as soon as you pop into that era and culture.  Giving everybody their EU earlier is a quick and easy method to accomplish this, but the more "interesting" and culturally-friendly method would be to plan out these unique techs/buildings/units, and place them in the era's tech tree according to which culture affinity they are, so that the player never feel like they have to wait and unlock something unique before truly becoming their culture.  (an example is AOE II, in which large differences in factions don't start to emerge until age III, everybody is more or less generic (with small quirks) until then.)

LeMecDePhalanx wrote:
Emblematic units are kind of the "baseline uniqueness" of each faction, so giving them to the player soon after a culture is adopted is a great way of getting the player "immersed" in that culture, letting them FEEL like they are now this culture that they have picked.

That is also a very good point.

Add to this that it can very well be that a late tier unique unit it followed up by an early tier unique unit of another culture which ceartantly messes with the sensation of playing out the unique unit of the previous faction (if the sensation is still there at all in this scenario as the playder has already moved onto a new more reelvant culture)

To be fair: there is a mitigating factor here as each base unit and I guess some buildings also gets a visual makeover when a new culture is applied which should lend a nice boost to the feeiling mentioend above, but the main attraction remains of course the unique faction unit that needs time to shine while its relevant culture is still being played