Hey all!

The Lucy OpenDev is the first time you all get to try out so many different Cultures and how to combine them across four different eras!
So we are eager to hear what you think of the different cultures: Which ones are your favorites? Which ones are interesting? Which ones are particularly strong or weak? Are there any particularly powerful combinations?

There is effectively only 1 naval Classical Era Culture which will be limiting for Island Scenarios.

I like that several legacy traits were made weaker compared to the previous OpenDev, it looks more balanced. Can't really compare the cultures in detail as I've only played one playthrough, but barays felt too strong to me.

In ancient era I chose a civ with agrarian orientation but I wasn't able to use the agrarian ability as the meter didn't fill even once while I was in that era. So my guess is that some fine-tuning is needed there.

I wish there was more ways for the different cultures across mutliple eras to... interact if that makes snse :)
Currently (as far as I have noticed anyway) does the change between the eras feel more like a character change rather than an evolution from the previous era.. if that makes any sense? :)

I wanted to raise something that is not mechanical. I found it very strange that the Olmec culture's city (or at least their first city) has a Spanish name. I can't recall it off the top of my head, if I can edit this comment I will add it in, but it was something akin to San Fernando. I don't understand why a culture's city name would be in the language of a culture that did not even interact with them, as they had disappeared before the Spanish came to Central America, if I am not mistaken. I understand we do not know very much of the Olmec, but I would hope that city names could reflect something besides the eventual colonizers of the region that the Olmec lived in. 

ForrestS49 wrote:

I wanted to raise something that is not mechanical. I found it very strange that the Olmec culture's city (or at least their first city) has a Spanish name. I can't recall it off the top of my head, if I can edit this comment I will add it in, but it was something akin to San Fernando. I don't understand why a culture's city name would be in the language of a culture that did not even interact with them, as they had disappeared before the Spanish came to Central America, if I am not mistaken. I understand we do not know very much of the Olmec, but I would hope that city names could reflect something besides the eventual colonizers of the region that the Olmec lived in. 

It's San Lorenzo. I also found that extremely odd myself.

For the broader topic, overall the Cultures felt great to me. I will say that the size of the continent and how far across high seas the other two were made me not want to pick Expansionist civilizations. The Zhou as a classical pick are great because the Stability boost on every city is phenomenal and scales amazingly into the midgame.

I will say because religion is a cake walk right now the Cultures with religious EQs were not as attractive to me. If I picked one of them, such as the Umayyids or the Edo Japanese for example, I picked them for the legacy trait almost entirely.

Far as I can tell the Norsemen are the quickest way to get true high seas travel with their Langskips. However, I noticed that the legacy +3 Naval speed didn't apply to the Langskips and they were stuck at 3 movement. Is this intentional because they're transports and not "true" naval units?

The Joseon legacy trait is WILD! if you claim the archipelago region to the north and slap down a ton of Harbors, that city outputs a monstrous amount of science. One harbor was able to give 60 for example!

Tnecniw wrote:

I wish there was more ways for the different cultures across mutliple eras to... interact if that makes snse :)
Currently (as far as I have noticed anyway) does the change between the eras feel more like a character change rather than an evolution from the previous era.. if that makes any sense? :)

Shift definitely feels more like an abrupt change of characters than a gradual evolution of culture, but have no ideas on how that could be realistically fixed.

I agree it would be nice if there was more flavour carried over from your previous cultures... would allowing your earlier cultures special buildings to still be built be too strong? 

I haven't played with any of the food-based cultures because food feels so exceptionally easy to come by its a throw-away resource, I should go back and try playing as one just to see if my intuition is correct. part of the problem is that the balance of the economy is out of wack enough that it makes it hard to judge what about the cultures might be good.

The triggerable abilities feel weak overall, especially the expansionist one. I searched in every one of my neighbour's territories for 20 turns seeing if I could claim any territories and none of them were valid. I'd like to see those triggerable abilities be a lot stronger but then put them on a 10-15 turn cooldown or make them useable only once or twice until I advanced to the next age. I would love for these things to be momentous events that histories wrote about centuries later Things like:

-Gain access to a new luxury good deposit for the rest of the game (think silk, or Faberge eggs, something that only your culture knows how to make in the whole world) make this cost science equivalent to a current age technology. Yes the Chinese had silk and fine porcelain china and the whole world wanted to trade with them but in the age of sail they were far behind the western nations in tech... and yes I know that bit of history is way more complex than this simple game mechanic but it would be thematic at least

- give one army stack +20 combat to each unit for the next combat but then destroy all but one of your units at the end of the battle, usable only once (think the battle of Thermopylae, the alamo or Agincourt) 

-Gain one city from any player that has an inferior army - useable once, or costing 1000's of influence I'm thinking gunboat diplomacy here, but again make it useable once or put it on a 20+ turn cooldown

-Destroy one enemy stack (Hannibal crossing the alps)

-double production/food/science/influence in one city for 3 turns. 15 turn cooldown even though this might not be history-making I would at least look forward to being able to push the button unlike sacrificing all my science to gain a little more production

I guess what I'm saying is make me want to push the button, as it is right now you could honestly remove the button and the game would be no different at all.

Amplitude is renowned for creating truly unique factions for its 4x game. However you can tell they're disrupted by the culture switching mechanic in HK. I think this is for a few reasons

1. Balance is harder, since you have more mechanics and numerous culture combinations. If a culture is too strong, then it might be too easy to transcend as them.
2. You can't create a "self-contained" culture, because they need to synergize with each other, and parts of it will fall out  of date
3. Cultures can't deviate from the norm as much, since that will disrupt the game in the middle of it (although perhaps Ancient could have some extremely game-changing LTs)

However, while the self-contained, mechanic changing Factions won't really work for Humankind. However some culture's LT (Legacy Trait) suffer from a complete lack of uniqueness, and can be considered a lesser version of some other effect. These cultures are outlined below.

(Side note, I like the new Assyrians LT, Siege Masters, +1 Movement speed on land units, but it seems to be a placeholder while fortification is being implemented. If this is the case, I hope the + Movement Speed ends up somewhere else, instead of being removed.)

• The Hittite LT, Lust for War, (was changed from) +20 Morale on War declaration ->(to) +1 Combat Strength on Unit. This is 50% of the Tier 4 Tenet, Meditate Often (+2 Combat Strength on unit
• The Egyptian LT, Grand Planners, -25% Wonder construction cost -> +1 Industry on Districts giving Industry, -10% Production cost on Districts. The first half of this is 50% of the Mayan LT (+2 Industry on Districts giving Industry), and the second half is 40% if the Pyramid of Giza bonus (-25% Production cost on Districts).
• The Harappan LT, Fertile Inundations, +2 Industry +2 Food on River -> +1 Food on Districts giving Food, +1 Food on Rivers. The first half of this is 50% of the Celt LT, and the second half is 50% of either Flood Irrigation or Artificial Reservoir (+2 Food on River each), or the second effect of Fishery (+3 Food on Harbor, +1 Food on River).
• The Phoenician LT, Trading Pioneers, +5 Money on Trade Route on Settlement -> 20% Buyout cost reduction. This is 40% of the Carthaginian LT (50% Buyout cost reduction)
• The Olmec LT, Natural Harmony, +2 Influence on Mountain and Lake, +1 Influence on Coastal -> +2 Influence on Territory. There is no exact match, but it could be considered 40% of the Tier 1 Tenet, Smite Unbelievers (+5 Influence on territories under a religions influence).

Onto Later Eras now. (These are unchanged from when we last knew of them)

• The Aztec LT, Huitzilopochtli's Glory, Modify Unit Production cost by -25%, is the first effect of the Mycenaeans LT (Modify Unit Production cost by -25% , +25 Experience creating a Unit on city or outpost) The Mycenaeans LT, Brutal Upbringing, used to be +100% experience gain on unit.
• The Khmer LT, Servants of Magnificence, +2 Industry per Workers on Settlement, is one effect of the Mughal EQ, Jama Masjid (+2 Industry per Worker, +1 Influence per adjacent religious extension, +1 Worker slot). Consider the fact that the Jama Masjid can be spammed in a city.
• The Umayyad LT, Learned Friends, +10 Science per Number of Territories on all cities, is similar to the Tier 1 Tenet, Be in Harmony with Nature (+10 Science on territories under a religion's influence)
• The Ottomans LT, Sultan's Realm, +15% discount on attaching territories, is 75% of the Codified Laws (Modify Attach Outpost cost by -20%, Modify Absorb City cost by -20%) civic choice for the Legitimacy Civic

I've played 40 hours so far and at first I really found the cultures very engaging however I can tell that after a few games the charm will fall off because the Bonuses can in some cases feel very mediocre, for example the new Celts. This is probably because the whole economy aspect of the game is broken in my opinion. All the food-based civs are rather pointless to grab since food is a non-issue resource nor a very scale-able resource and strategy. I find the cultures with districts that play with adjecency are rather fun like the Aksumite's Great Obelisk. I also really loved the Mongol's Orda for wide empires to get a crazy boost to your economy. And lastly the Zhou have a very cool district that plays around with terrain, so I find it very engaging that you would pick a culture based on your current terrain.  

As for Transcending, im not sure why would you ever transcend. Is there a bonus to doing that at all? If there is I don't think its very clear from the UI.

Wolvski wrote:

I've played 40 hours so far and at first I really found the cultures very engaging however I can tell that after a few games the charm will fall off because the Bonuses can in some cases feel very mediocre, for example the new Celts. This is probably because the whole economy aspect of the game is broken in my opinion. All the food-based civs are rather pointless to grab since food is a non-issue resource nor a very scale-able resource and strategy. I find the cultures with districts that play with adjecency are rather fun like the Aksumite's Great Obelisk. I also really loved the Mongol's Orda for wide empires to get a crazy boost to your economy. And lastly the Zhou have a very cool district that plays around with terrain, so I find it very engaging that you would pick a culture based on your current terrain.  

As for Transcending, im not sure why would you ever transcend. Is there a bonus to doing that at all? If there is I don't think its very clear from the UI.

You get a fame bonus for transcending. You should be able to see the details by hovering over the "Transcend" button.

The Khmer's Baray district is probably way OP, check out Dur-Kurigalzu here:

The Baray district is very enjoyable indeed... and overpowered.

Regarding culture,isn't there a way to get, like for religion, grievances when a neighbouring nation's city is of my culture ?

Joseon's ability provides +4 Science on all Coastal and Lake tiles. So this is what a Joseon coast currently looks like: 

A Harbor can exploit 2 tiles away, which means a carefully placed Harbor can easily have a Science output greater than Joseon's EQ, Seowon (+5 Science per adjacent Exploitation). That's a massive amount of science on top of another massive amount of science, and currently the Early Modern techs are not really a science sink.

There is a huge variance in the cultures. Some are really interesting and can completely change the game but others feel dull because they are weak. 

ForrestS49 wrote:

I wanted to raise something that is not mechanical. I found it very strange that the Olmec culture's city (or at least their first city) has a Spanish name. I can't recall it off the top of my head, if I can edit this comment I will add it in, but it was something akin to San Fernando. I don't understand why a culture's city name would be in the language of a culture that did not even interact with them, as they had disappeared before the Spanish came to Central America, if I am not mistaken. I understand we do not know very much of the Olmec, but I would hope that city names could reflect something besides the eventual colonizers of the region that the Olmec lived in. 

I think that's really important. Having the name of colonizers in a native culture is specially insulting.

barnabas wrote:

In ancient era I chose a civ with agrarian orientation but I wasn't able to use the agrarian ability as the meter didn't fill even once while I was in that era. So my guess is that some fine-tuning is needed there.

I tested it, same here, I even focused on food, got to abundant in capital and 40 food in my second city. I rushed through ancient era, and by turn 24 got to next era. So from turns 9 - 24, I filled up around 1/4 of the meter. I mean that action alone is the only reason for taking a agrarian culture currently as food resource is currently not so important,(since going from 10 to 30 food income has no impact, while going from 10 to 30 production is huge, thats at least how I approach it). But if I could use that ability even once I could translate it could look at it like having 5 - 6 extra units in the next era depending on how many territories I get to.

Wolvski wrote:

I've played 40 hours so far and at first I really found the cultures very engaging however I can tell that after a few games the charm will fall off because the Bonuses can in some cases feel very mediocre, for example the new Celts. This is probably because the whole economy aspect of the game is broken in my opinion. All the food-based civs are rather pointless to grab since food is a non-issue resource nor a very scale-able resource and strategy. I find the cultures with districts that play with adjecency are rather fun like the Aksumite's Great Obelisk. I also really loved the Mongol's Orda for wide empires to get a crazy boost to your economy. And lastly the Zhou have a very cool district that plays around with terrain, so I find it very engaging that you would pick a culture based on your current terrain.  

As for Transcending, im not sure why would you ever transcend. Is there a bonus to doing that at all? If there is I don't think its very clear from the UI.

I have a similar feeling. While initially I felt map based bonuses are more of a hindrance, I at least felt the city planning becomes more intersting with them. I would also say if you get that right, it will be powerful. Some civs I would simply never take because their LT looks poor - such as all the agri based - but a few others as well. I for instance don't see the point of gold focussed civs as money is also always abundant. But what I found also odd is that, and I am sure someone else has picked that up, when you do not advance you can continue ticking of some fame points and then go into a new culture and get 5+ of new science right away. That would certainly never make me transced because I don't see the need: just collect some extra fame, you are far ahead of the AI, have no fear you lose out a culture, get all the science instantly anyway and then move on to a better unit from a newer culture if you need. I would say this playstyle made some sense for me, but I find it ahistorical in a way and not something that the game should encourage imho.