TZer0 wrote:
As an owner of both Endless Space (with Disharmony) and Dungeon of the Endless (founder edition), I find this to be a bad, bad move.



If this is an attempt at making your customers notice your other game on Steam, then sure: you've succeeded. However, if the intention was to make a good lasting impression on said customers, then you've failed miserably.



If I had known about the fact that my Dungeon of the Endless (founder edition) unlocks a playable race in Endless Space before I got both games, I actually would've refused to get both games (until the issue was resolved) - I am absolutely serious about this. A friend of mine was also so frustrated when she found out about this, that she almost uninstalled Endless Space.



Giving out factions (with unique traits) to some players and not to others creates an uneven playing field and it is even more annoying when it is based on another, almost completely unrelated purchase.



Please, give everyone access to the vaulters - now.

As someone uninterested in multi-player, I had not considered this.



Imbalance is definitely a concern as the Vaulters have a powerful affinity.



While I understand the frustration the player base (rightfully) has with this kind of marketing move, it's also 's prerogative, as a business. They are likely to make more money with such a strategy by selling copies of DotE than they are to lose money from angry customers. As unpleasant as it may be, the truth of the matter is that those that actually make good on their threats to boycott are a minority compared to those that don't even consider it an issue, in most cases.



That said, I think should, at the very least, patch so that it locks out factions the opponent does not have access to.

As an owner of both Endless Space (with Disharmony) and Dungeon of the Endless (founder edition), I find this to be a bad, bad move.



If this is an attempt at making your customers notice your other game on Steam, then sure: you've succeeded. However, if the intention was to make a good lasting impression on said customers, then you've failed miserably.



If I had known about the fact that my Dungeon of the Endless (founder edition) unlocks a playable race in Endless Space before I got both games, I actually would've refused to get both games (until the issue was resolved) - I am absolutely serious about this. A friend of mine was also so frustrated when she found out about this, that she almost uninstalled Endless Space.



Giving out factions (with unique traits) to some players and not to others creates an uneven playing field and it is even more annoying when it is based on another, almost completely unrelated purchase.



Please, give everyone access to the vaulters - now.

Appearntly if you have disharmony ( which I do) your able to play as the vaulters but I dont see them in factions I really dont want to buy another game to play as them if this is just a bug has anybody else had the same issue

Vicarious wrote:
Hmm, the tooltip says that Vaulter Apertures (VA) "eliminates expansion disapproval", though each VA actually reduces one of multipliers used for calculation expansion disapproval on your systems. When I first read the tooltip, I thought it simply negates expansion disapproval on the system it is built upon.



Correct me if I'm missing something.



Expansion disapproval on non-vaulter colonies and outposts inside empire (covered with your influence area):



ED = (S-2)*M*0.75



Where S is the number of systems with 100% ownership,

M is expansion disapproval multiplier depending on game difficulty level

Does S only include 100% Ownership systems? How are captured systems accounted for by this then?

Vicarious wrote:


expansion disapproval on non-vaulter outposts:



ED = (S-2)*M*1.5



VAULTERS



Expansion disapproval on colonies and outposts inside empire (covered with your influence area):



ED = (S-2-P)*M*3*0.75



Where S is the number of systems with 100% ownership,

P is the number of VA,

M is expansion disapproval multiplier depending on game difficulty level,

(S-2-P)>=0



expansion disapproval on outposts:



ED = (S-2-P)*M*3*1.5

The one thing I'd want to/need to test about this formula would be whether that means you get 2 planets without Portals that have no effect. Based on this equation, there is no penalty for capturing 2 planets, as long as all your planets have Portals. This means you can capture 2 planets every (3 + (turns to gain 100% Ownership) turns and never have any penalty.



If each planet without a portal counts as 3x penalty the following occurs instead:

ED = ([(S-P)*3] - 2) * M * {1.5|.75}



Luckily this is easy (enough) to test. With this equation settling your first colony will result in [ED=.75M] on your homeworld system. Otherwise, the penalty only applies when you have 3+ systems without Portals which allows for fairly aggressive expansion.



Colonize -> Exploit -> Portal = ~6-10 turns

Colonize -> Exploit (Buyout) -> Portal = 3 turns

Colonize -> Portal -> Exploit = 3 turns + Delayed Exploitation





In summary:

If the x3 multiplier applies after (S - P - 2), then Vaulters get an extra colony early game before penalty kicks in (Assuming no portals are build) since you start out at (S - 1 - 2) ... (-3).

In this case, there is no urgency to build the portals unless you are expanding very quickly, simply build it 3 turns before you next expand (So as your colony ship heads out more or less) and you will keep your ED penalty at 0. Building it sooner is a production loss (Can start N-Way reactors sooner).



If the x3 multiplier applies directly to [S-P], then every colony causes ED for at least 3 turns, making the first colony more penalizing than it is for other factions, leading to an unhappier start that is made up for as portals come online.

In this case building the Portal even before your Exploitation (assuming you cannot buy it out) is potentially the best choice, particularly on larger empires (minimum time with ED).

it was posted on the dev blog a little while ago. heres a link: http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/content.php?370-Endless-Dungeon-of-the-Space-Legend-(sort-of)

Steph'nie wrote:
As Adventurer_Blitz mentioned, the Vaulters are only available if you own both Disharmony and the Founder Pack of Dungeon of the Endless. They will however be given to everyone who owns Disharmony (without purchasing this Founder Pack) when Dungeon of the Endless is released.

Shouldn't this be posted somewhat more.. offical? Or am I simply too tired atm and can't find?

Steph'nie wrote:
As Adventurer_Blitz mentioned, the Vaulters are only available if you own both Disharmony and the Founder Pack of Dungeon of the Endless. They will however be given to everyone who owns Disharmony (without purchasing this Founder Pack) when Dungeon of the Endless is released.

Nice clarification. I bought Dungeon anyways, and will buy EL (reaaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyyyy looking forward to this) when it becomes available.

Hmm, the tooltip says that Vaulter Apertures (VA) "eliminates expansion disapproval", though each VA actually reduces one of multipliers used for calculation expansion disapproval on your systems. When I first read the tooltip, I thought it simply negates expansion disapproval on the system it is built upon.



Correct me if I'm missing something.



Expansion disapproval on non-vaulter colonies and outposts inside empire (covered with your influence area):



ED = (S-2)*M*0.75



Where S is the number of systems with 100% ownership,

M is expansion disapproval multiplier depending on game difficulty level



expansion disapproval on non-vaulter outposts:



ED = (S-2)*M*1.5



VAULTERS



Expansion disapproval on colonies and outposts inside empire (covered with your influence area):



ED = (S-2-P)*M*3*0.75



Where S is the number of systems with 100% ownership,

P is the number of VA,

M is expansion disapproval multiplier depending on game difficulty level,

(S-2-P)>=0



expansion disapproval on outposts:



ED = (S-2-P)*M*3*1.5

Gibbe Vaulters DLC pl0x ;_;

I'm looking forward to seeing what all the hoopla is about. I'd imagine the wait won't be too long before Dungeon of the Endless is out.

Steph'nie wrote:
As Adventurer_Blitz mentioned, the Vaulters are only available if you own both Disharmony and the Founder Pack of Dungeon of the Endless. They will however be given to everyone who owns Disharmony (without purchasing this Founder Pack) when Dungeon of the Endless is released.

Thanks, that's my Amplitude

nicholsandrew1 wrote:
Appearntly if you have disharmony ( which I do) your able to play as the vaulters but I dont see them in factions I really dont want to buy another game to play as them if this is just a bug has anybody else had the same issue

As Adventurer_Blitz mentioned, the Vaulters are only available if you own both Disharmony and the Founder Pack of Dungeon of the Endless. They will however be given to everyone who owns Disharmony (without purchasing this Founder Pack) when Dungeon of the Endless is released.

for now untile DotEis released, upon which the vaulters will be a free dlc, only people who have purchased the founders pack can play as the vaulters. think of it as beta access for people who pay around 10 dollars

I bought it for the vaulters and to support Amplitude (I vote with my dollars), but it looks like it might be very interesting.

(Original post lost, having to rewrite)



It both is and isn't a large change (when put the way you put it).



I was picture the early rush as more of an early rush to establish colonies on choke points or vital resource systems to prevent others from benefitting. With the defensive nature of the Vaulters combined with their high mobility in-empire it will be quite hard to dislodge them from any system they take. You also have to consider that although the expansion disapproval penalty is 3x that of other races, existing colonies don't affect it so capturing 2 colonies gives you the same disapproval as holding a total of 8, regardless of how many you already have. You still have access to the same approval boosting improvements to counter this effect (and allow for higher tax rates when not invading).



Expand -> Reinforce and stabilize -> Creep forward a few systems at a time.



Combine this with the use of Troop Invasions rather than traditional sieges (See this thread) and you'll be potentially starting at higher Ownership (reducing conversion from 13 turns (Rebellion, 25 without) to some fraction thereof), meaning expansion disapproval will be an even shorter lived penalty.



Maintain a few hard to kill ships/fleets for blockades and you'll need fewer offensive fleets, since travel between any two fronts is shorter than for anyone else unless wormholes are conveniently close to the fronts due to the portals.



Build the same approval improvements as you would with other factions, keep your tax rate high and you'll have a a pool of dust to work with while you have to drop taxes to counter Expansion Disapproval right after capturing a few systems. High enough approval prior to doing so and you'll still be making dust, otherwise you'll lose a bit of dust for a few turns. (Convert some production to Dust rather than Science during that time if necessary). Obviously this has to be tested following the changes, but it fits lorewise as well.



Good science so they should be ahead of most factions scientifically (all things being equal), good defenses (hard to remove from a planet once it is settled), very short supply lines and high mobility.

Zinsho wrote:
The changes won't change much.



Once you get Wormhole tech, send colony ships out to other sections of the galaxy. Colonize any viable planet there, build a portal. Instant access to that part of the galaxy with all your fleets (for invasion or defense purposes). If Vaulters get a colony + portal up (cannot be bought out to hurry construction), there is likely little any enemy can do to dislodge that colony without greatly overwhelming force (in which case use a different portal to attack from another direction).



To contain the Vaulters you'll really have to contain them, any expansion (even detached from core worlds) has the entire empire's production behind it after a few turns, ship wise. Local improvements are only as fast as the colony can be up and running (Admin Heroes can help here).

• Systems with Portals don't count for Expansion Disapproval :: Expansion has no approval penalty after ~6 turns (Colonize, move Admin Hero in, Exploit, then Heavy Isotope Refineries, then portal, or Portal then Refineries), approval penalty is gone.
• 15 Turns at 33% Science during production of Science Portal :: This hurts but timing will be everything on it. (Rush for it and you'll make up the lost science throughout the rest of the game, too early and you won't have enough portals to benefit from it).
• Cannot build portals without 100% Ownership and 3x Expansion Disapproval :: 3x Disapproval means each invaded planet counts as 3 normal colonies. Capture too many at once and it will have an effect until they're fully owned. Rebellion [Ifnotacustomfactionwithoutit] reduces this penalty by speeding up the transfer. By the time the transfer is complete the portal shouldn't take very long to build due to Industry (see first point).
  
  

The main thing I'd want clarified is this though:



Expansion Disapproval starts as of the 3rd system colonized from what I understand. If all colonies/outposts have a portal on them, does the first newly colonized planet count as #2 (meaning no penalty as long as only 1 planet is lacking a portal), or do all colonies after the second have the initial penalty until the portal is built.

Well imo it changes alot



To do a rush with a Vaulter race is now not that smart todo cause all u will invade (rebellion trait or not) will be completely useless for you for a couple of turns. This forces the Vaulters more in there defensive Bunker role wich they are supposed to be. Even Crusades in the mid and late game now are maybe not even worth it and it would be more wisely to just defend your Empire and try to acomplish a Science Victory which also is more lore friendly.

The changes won't change much.



Once you get Wormhole tech, send colony ships out to other sections of the galaxy. Colonize any viable planet there, build a portal. Instant access to that part of the galaxy with all your fleets (for invasion or defense purposes). If Vaulters get a colony + portal up (cannot be bought out to hurry construction), there is likely little any enemy can do to dislodge that colony without greatly overwhelming force (in which case use a different portal to attack from another direction).



To contain the Vaulters you'll really have to contain them, any expansion (even detached from core worlds) has the entire empire's production behind it after a few turns, ship wise. Local improvements are only as fast as the colony can be up and running (Admin Heroes can help here).

• Systems with Portals don't count for Expansion Disapproval :: Expansion has no approval penalty after ~6 turns (Colonize, move Admin Hero in, Exploit, then Heavy Isotope Refineries, then portal, or Portal then Refineries), approval penalty is gone.
• 15 Turns at 33% Science during production of Science Portal :: This hurts but timing will be everything on it. (Rush for it and you'll make up the lost science throughout the rest of the game, too early and you won't have enough portals to benefit from it).
• Cannot build portals without 100% Ownership and 3x Expansion Disapproval :: 3x Disapproval means each invaded planet counts as 3 normal colonies. Capture too many at once and it will have an effect until they're fully owned. Rebellion [Ifnotacustomfactionwithoutit] reduces this penalty by speeding up the transfer. By the time the transfer is complete the portal shouldn't take very long to build due to Industry (see first point).
  
  

The main thing I'd want clarified is this though:

Systems with Portals aren’t count for Expansion Disapproval

Expansion Disapproval starts as of the 3rd system colonized from what I understand. If all colonies/outposts have a portal on them, does the first newly colonized planet count as #2 (meaning no penalty as long as only 1 planet is lacking a portal), or do all colonies after the second have the initial penalty until the portal is built.

Defnitely on a par when the patch tommorow doesnt change to much.



Super early rushes where the enemy is trying to blockade all your systems maybe before all their systems are connected or have enouhg industrie to produce and teleport defensiv forces

but the timeframe for such a rush is very early and very small. But actually that can kill everyrace and the Vaulters are even better in countering it.

so how does a customized vaulters faction far against some of the other customized races? also what is the standard vaulters' weaknesses?

Adventurer_Blitz wrote:
how good is their military against the sophons?

Great

the Sophon affinity is suffering bad Ship models penalties (quite rightly) while the Vaulters benefit from the Ship Bonuses from the UE which are quite good.