Igncom1 wrote:


With the exception of rushing it, and with the 2 turns per CP part.



That way fleets need to retreat to industry heavy systems to refit, I still feel like a ships should receive a malus to its HP however.

2 turns per CP is way too steep. By the time I have the dreadnought hull, I usually have a system that can crank out brand new ones in 3 or 4 turns at the most.



It should just be a percentage Ind for the hull and all the component modules, like 40% or something of that nature.

Velaux wrote:
I don't understand how? You lose, you lose. Losing in 3 rounds is better than losing in 1?

Losing a fleet, to buy time to build another one.

What? The price is identical everywhere, barring -buyout buildings. It costs (0.75*the remaining amount of industry to make the ship)^1.25. The only factors are -buyout modifiers, and the remaining cost of the ship. Since we're talking about buying totally unbuilt ships, that means everywhere is the same.

Industry reduces a ships cost to buy, forge systems buy ships for cheaper then other systems.

Every game is designed for them, otherwise no level of advantage means anything until you actually win. They're a key aspect of game design :/

Your advantage shouldn't mean I lose fleets from a 1 turn refit of a highly experienced fleet that only gets better, otherwise a fleet with level 10 ships and a level 20 hero will snowball the game, this waqy a really good fleet is still balanced compared to a fleet i just built, yours is still better but not by a massive margin.

Igncom1 wrote:
Losing a fleet, to buy time to build another one.

Well losing ships slows them down of course, but I don't see how losing defensive ships slows them down more than losing a glass cannon or something.

Industry reduces a ships cost to buy, forge systems buy ships for cheaper then other systems.

Really? What's the correct equation then?

Your advantage shouldn't mean I lose fleets from a 1 turn refit of a highly experienced fleet that only gets better, otherwise a fleet with level 10 ships and a level 20 hero will snowball the game, this waqy a really good fleet is still balanced compared to a fleet i just built, yours is still better but not by a massive margin.

Ah well obviously people will always disagree on just how much snowball is the right amount. Personally, I think if you let me get a lvl 20 hero and lvl 10 ships, it's because you already lost. The cleanup in 4x's is something of a problem and I'm glad for anything to speed it up.

Velaux wrote:
Well losing ships slows them down of course, but I don't see how losing defensive ships slows them down more than losing a glass cannon or something.

You slow down his advance, as long as you don't lose the fleet in 1 turn.

Really? What's the correct equation then?

I don't know the equation, this is practical experience.

Ah well obviously people will always disagree on just how much snowball is the right amount. Personally, I think if you let me get a lvl 20 hero and lvl 10 ships, it's because you already lost. The cleanup in 4x's is something of a problem and I'm glad for anything to speed it up.

That's why we have victory conditions, and not only an annihilation victory.

Spero42 wrote:
I like the MOO2 method of adding the ships to system queues for refit. They always cost a lot less than a brand new ship (a turn or two), but didn't necessarily cost money unless you rushed it.

YES YES YES.



This is why I want them to go back into the queue. It makes more sense in any form than magically buying them upgrades, let alone with penalties

Shivetya wrote:
YES YES YES.



This is why I want them to go back into the queue. It makes more sense in any form than magically buying them upgrades, let alone with penalties

Costing industry and more time is something I can accept.

Igncom1 wrote:
You slow down his advance, as long as you don't lose the fleet in 1 turn.

:0:0:0 You can actually have two fleets both survive a fight?

I don't know the equation, this is practical experience.

I was actually really hoping you were right, but I just checked a game and you're not =( I checked every system in a late game and only saw 2 values, depending on whether I had that revenue zen building up in the system. Industry definitely has zero effect.

Velaux wrote:
:0:0:0 You can actually have two fleets both survive a fight?

Yes, admittedly my race did have the third defensive perk, and my fleets were usually built on worlds with the HP boosting improvements.



But i fully understand why people don't get there, the defenses in this game are so bi-polar its not even funny.

I was actually really hoping you were right, but I just checked a game and you're not =( I checked every system in a late game and only saw 2 values, depending on whether I had that revenue zen building up in the system. Industry definitely has zero effect.

I have also checked, that's a freaking shame, and i redact the statement "The cost of ships is dependent on a systems industry, buying fleets on the frontier will empty your bank after a few ships." As i am clearly wrong, and I am.



I however replace it with "like the MOO2 method of adding the ships to system queues for refit. They always cost a lot less than a brand new ship (a turn or two), but didn't necessarily cost money unless you rushed it."



With the exception of rushing it, and with the 2 turns per CP part.



That way fleets need to retreat to industry heavy systems to refit, I still feel like a ships should receive a malus to its HP however.

Igncom1 wrote:
Yes, admittedly my race did have the third defensive perk, and my fleets were usually built on worlds with the HP boosting improvements.



But i fully understand why people don't get there, the defenses in this game are so bi-polar its not even funny.

Naw the problem is HP, or rather the ratio of ship HP to weapon damage. You can stop damage fine with the correct defences, but you can't survive even the tiniest amount that gets through. A single top tier weapon will destroy a base battleship in one phase (well, a missile will, depends on accuracy). HP modules aren't really viable to stop that, since you need 3 per weapon, and that just buys you one more phase, then you die anyway.

I however replace it with "like the MOO2 method of adding the ships to system queues for refit. They always cost a lot less than a brand new ship (a turn or two), but didn't necessarily cost money unless you rushed it."



With the exception of rushing it, and with the 2 turns per CP part.



That way fleets need to retreat to industry heavy systems to refit, I still feel like a ships should receive a malus to its HP however.

Ideas like this might make sense if they make ships in general vastly more survivable (and expensive), and so more important to keep alive. As it is they're really just throwaways. No one would ever bother retrofitting with a system like this, in the current game.

Stronger defenses accounts for less HP.



Again, the games Bi-polar weapons are a problem, but that's not the point, and you still would refit, unless you like getting vastly outclassed.

Igncom1 wrote:
Stronger defenses accounts for less HP.

Not exactly. Consider this: You have a fleet with 10 lasers per destroyer, and I have a fleet with 5 shields per. We're both using the first tech and you have 50% acc, so we should be evenly matched. All good so far. Except, my fleet is going to die in probably under a phase. Defences work well (too well for kinetics & missiles) - the problem is the paper doll behind them. One wrong move, one bad roll on the RNG deciding 5 ships will attack you this round, and boom, you're dead. Personally, I think this combat should end in a draw with some damage on my side.



How else do you propose having combat last longer than a phase?

Again, the games Bi-polar weapons are a problem, but that's not the point, and you still would refit, unless you like getting vastly outclassed.

What do you mean by bi-polar weapons?



If your changes were implemented right now, I would never refit anything. Waste of time. I'll just build new ships. Send the old ones to harass or scout him or something.

I don't know, its mostly possible that the HP boosting improvements on my worlds make my ships very hard to kill.



Well as you said, either a weapon doesn't get through and does no damage, or it does and WTFBBQPWN the enemy.



I am going go out a a limb here and say drop the HP malus, but have refits still cost dust to refit, have them refit as fast as a system can based on its industry, and have it take time.

Voted for 'Alternative idea'.



To my mind Retrofitting is a weighing of risk against reward: the risk is that you are taking an asset out of action for a while and consuming some Industrial output, and the reward is that you will soon benefit from a more capable asset. In ES there is no risk whatsoever, it’s all about too-easily-accrued reward.



Suggestion: Selecting an asset for retrofitting removes it from the fleet and places it in the hangar* at that system. The asset will remain in the hangar and will consume Industrial output from that system equal to the difference in Industrial cost between the old and the new ship schematic before being made available for re-launch.

- A retrofitted ship should be out of action whilst it is being worked on by virtue of it being in the hangar.

- Only systems able to support Industrial output should be able to perform a retrofit in good time.

- Removes the instant fleet rebuild for Cash silliness which completely undermines all strategic planning. Retrofitting for Cash only also favours the Dust producing civilisation over the Industrious one which is backwards.



* I prefer to think of the hangar as being a spacedock. Starships aren’t build on the planet’s surface, that’s just mental. The fact that hangars can’t be attacked is a bit weird.

You can buy anything with dust. You can buy a new ship for dust too. So why you can't refit ships for dust? However ships might be refittable through industry, and dust using to hurry production as anywhere else ingame. I think this is the best solution.

Igncom1 wrote:
But it does slow them enough to get new ships out.

I don't understand how? You lose, you lose. Losing in 3 rounds is better than losing in 1?

What? it means everything, with you massive home worlds easily buying whole fleets, and less developed systems buying only a few ships.

What? The price is identical everywhere, barring -buyout buildings. It costs (0.75*the remaining amount of industry to make the ship)^1.25. The only factors are -buyout modifiers, and the remaining cost of the ship. Since we're talking about buying totally unbuilt ships, that means everywhere is the same.



Seems like one of us is badly misunderstanding buyouts. If it's me I'd like to know so I can make more use of them!

Then we disagree, as I hate them.

Every game is designed for them, otherwise no level of advantage means anything until you actually win. They're a key aspect of game design :/

Spero42 wrote:
2 turns per CP is way too steep. By the time I have the dreadnought hull, I usually have a system that can crank out brand new ones in 3 or 4 turns at the most.



It should just be a percentage Ind for the hull and all the component modules, like 40% or something of that nature.

I find that to be a fair compromise.

Agr wrote:
You can buy anything with dust. You can buy a new ship for dust too. So why you can't refit ships for dust? However ships might be refittable through industry, and dust using to hurry production as anywhere else ingame. I think this is the best solution.

Agreed, buying anything with Dust is a fundamentally dubious game mechanic.



If a lonely frontier outpost can barely build its own outside toilet no amount of wealth will enable it to refit a DN inside of one turn, and then go back to having trouble with the plumbing.

Improved suggestion: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/12208-improved-refitting-suggestion

defekt wrote:
Agreed, buying anything with Dust is a fundamentally dubious game mechanic.



If a lonely frontier outpost can barely build its own outside toilet no amount of wealth will enable it to refit a DN inside of one turn, and then go back to having trouble with the plumbing.

Dust is used as currency, but it is not useless. It is nanomachines which can do whatever you wish them to. So yes, it can refit a DN. And if you wish, you can use Dust to fix all their plumbing problems instantly too

Therefore, what is now commonly known as “Dust” was a mix of different miniaturized elements that could replicate themselves, self-assemble, and network. Based on technologies of quantum computing and atomic-level miniaturization, Dust was capable of simple physical tasks as well as feats of advanced computing. As large numbers of elements communicated, combined, and interacted, it could even form sophisticated AI systems that were able to achieve advanced levels of reasoning and analysis. Its utility and flexibility became such that Dust was created in enormous volumes and became an integral component of everyday life.



/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13132-the-universe



There not nanites as we know them unfortunately, still i assume that they are used to massively speed up the entire industrial process, possibly even via some more un-moral means.