Igncom1 wrote:
Or you know, build more ships, refitting like this basically throws away any form of strategy, or planning. It says that i have money, so it doesn't matter what i do with my fleet till you attack, one turn and boom! Your fleet is worthless.

It would seem, that forcing the retrofitting to cost Industry, similar to M0O2, perhaps even on a 1-turn per ship (or CP) basis, would eliminate this issue you have with cash retrofitting.

I feel like the ability to refit a ships to too great, i feel like ships should revive -20% HP per refit, and ships should be unusable for 2 turns per CP.

Igncom1 wrote:
And completely unfair, just spending money to counter an opponent just brakes the entire point of strategy and planning.

Money isn't free. It's still better to plan so you don't have to blow countless thousands refitting.



Although, there's not really any proper scouting/spying in the game, so I don't see what other option one is supposed to have. If refitting was much harder, an unfortunate mismatch in ships could result in a very quick rollover.

Then that's your fault for not scouting an enemy's fleet, the AI certainly does it.



Money is free in ES, and with a small stock pile you can ensure that no configuration of enemy ships can best you.

Igncom1 wrote:
Then that's your fault for not scouting an enemy's fleet, the AI certainly does it.

How do you do this? Perhaps I missed a mechanic somewhere. I'd like to know the exact configuration of the 70 fleets on their planet, how do I do so?

Money is free in ES, and with a small stock pile you can ensure that no configuration of enemy ships can best you.

It is not free. Period. Hell, you could just use it to instantly make more ships instead of retrofitting. If costs were much higher that's all people would do.

Go there, get killed and look at the ship report, if they don't shoot on sight a hero with a spying ability will let you analyze their ships.



Yes it is, few planets don't give you a dust income per population, the only constrain is outcome and time. Making more ships doesn't magically place them in the desired positions, so the advantage of refitting still remains.

Igncom1 wrote:
Go there, get killed and look at the ship report, if they don't shoot on sight a hero with a spying ability will let you analyze their ships.

Awesome, I get to know what one of their dozens of fleets looks like. This is supposed to help how exactly:?

Yes it is, few planets don't give you a dust income per population, the only constrain is outcome and time. Making more ships doesn't magically place them in the desired positions, so the advantage of refitting still remains.

Er yeah. If you completely ignore time then every resource is free.



If your complaint is how quick retrofitting is, then I would agree. But to call dust free is simply asinine.

Velaux wrote:
Awesome, I get to know what one of their dozens of fleets looks like. This is supposed to help how exactly:?

Well unless they are devious enough to have all of their fleets completely different, it should help you get a general idea to what they are using.

Er yeah. If you completely ignore time then every resource is free.



If your complaint is how quick retrofitting is, then I would agree. But to call dust free is simply asinine.

I did not intend to call the dust free, for that I apologize.



I only meant the ease to getting enough dust to refit multiple fleets.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well unless they are devious enough to have all of their fleets completely different, it should help you get a general idea to what they are using.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what people will do - both by design and by coincidence. They'll have numerous anti-glass cannon fleets with only a handful of 'real' fleets that need to be worried about. Finding out what those are is a shot in the dark really.



I don't really like the easy-as-pie retrofitting, but nerfing it would mean slow response time combined with poor intel gathering, which is a recipe for lucky wins.

I did not intend to call the dust free, for that I apologize.



I only meant the ease to getting enough dust to refit multiple fleets.

Well with the first -buyout building it costs ~a fifth to refit instead of just buy a new one (if someone gets the second building and a monopoly on pre-schism artifacts..well...). A nerf the size of the one mentioned in the OP would likely mean people would just use dust to buy new ships instead.



The -hp idea is just horrible anyway. Half the point of retrofitting is to modernise your experienced but decrepit fleets :/

Velaux wrote:
Unfortunately, this is exactly what people will do - both by design and by coincidence. They'll have numerous anti-glass cannon fleets with only a handful of 'real' fleets that need to be worried about. Finding out what those are is a shot in the dark really.



I don't really like the easy-as-pie retrofitting, but nerfing it would mean slow response time combined with poor intel gathering, which is a recipe for lucky wins.

Intel gathering in the game is not developed so for multiplayer i agree, but again you would expect that to happen, but in single-player the AI is never that devious.



Slow response times would allow for an opponent to gain some ground before you completely counter him, otherwise you can just use your own glass cannon fleets to get a look and then refit your real fleet in 1 turn.

Well with the first -buyout building it costs ~a fifth to refit instead of just buy a new one. A nerf the size of the one mentioned in the OP would likely mean people would just use dust to buy new ships instead.



The -hp idea is just horrible anyway. Half the point of retrofitting is to modernise your experienced but decrepit fleets :/

And why not? The forge world where they are building their fleets are not in your empire so they still have to travel.



Yes you modernize your technology, but you can modernize the hull without building a new ship, and with all that work done inside the ship you would no doubt damage it and weaken it.



Leaving you with technologically advanced and experienced fleets, that still show age with less HP, thus requiring you to build more ships instead of tending to a single ship for 100 turns with no penalty.

Igncom1 wrote:
Intel gathering in the game is not developed so for multiplayer i agree, but again you would expect that to happen, but in single-player the AI is never that devious.

Well no, the AI suicides hundreds of fleets so you can have level 10 ships that never took a point of damage in their lives. Retrofitting in single player is an irrelevance - you never need it. If the AI is ever advanced enough to be devious the same problem would arise.

Slow response times would allow for an opponent to gain some ground before you completely counter him, otherwise you can just use your own glass cannon fleets to get a look and then refit your real fleet in 1 turn.

You can gain ground incredibly quickly in ES. As in, in a couple of turns you just lost half your empire and the game.



To avoid being a game of chance, a game must have at least one of:

1) A rapid response time to unexpected threats

2) A defenders advantage, allowing you leeway to respond to unexpected threats

3) Intel gathering abilities, so no threat is unexpected (unless you screwed up)



ES currently has the first one. If you remove it, it has to be replaced by another.

And why not? The forge world where they are building their fleets are not in your empire so they still have to travel.

:? I was talking about buying fleets. They'll buy them on whatever system is closest.

Yes you modernize your technology, but you can modernize the hull without building a new ship, and with all that work done inside the ship you would no doubt damage it and weaken it.



Leaving you with technologically advanced and experienced fleets, that still show age with less HP, thus requiring you to build more ships instead of tending to a single ship for 100 turns with no penalty.

Oh it makes perfect logical sense. It just undermines the fun XP mechanic and makes me not bothered to keep my ships alive.

Velaux wrote:
Well no, the AI suicides hundreds of fleets so you can have level 10 ships that never took a point of damage in their lives. Retrofitting in single player is an irrelevance - you never need it. If the AI is ever advanced enough to be devious the same problem would arise.

I have literally seen an AI adapt its designs to counter me, my beams lost effectiveness because of their designs.

You can gain ground incredibly quickly in ES. As in, in a couple of turns you just lost half your empire and the game.

You cannot take half an empire is a few turns, you can only travel and fight across an empire in a few turns.

To avoid being a game of chance, a game must have at least one of:

1) A rapid response time to unexpected threats

2) A defenders advantage, allowing you leeway to respond to unexpected threats

3) Intel gathering abilities, so no threat is unexpected (unless you screwed up)



ES currently has the first one. If you remove it, it has to be replaced by another.

I do believe number 2 and 3 are being worked on, besides your rapid response to a new fleet you cannot counter is a new line of ships to be built, which is a relatively simple matter. Ships should always be designed to take a beating so that should you lose your edge you wont lose as fast.

:? I was talking about buying fleets. They'll buy them on whatever system is closest.

The cost of ships is dependent on a systems industry, buying fleets on the frontier will empty your bank after a few ships.

Oh it makes perfect logical sense. It just undermines the fun XP mechanic and makes me not bothered to keep my ships alive.

Leveled ships gain massive boosts to HP, it is a very reasonable malus.

Igncom1 wrote:
You cannot take half an empire is a few turns, you can only travel and fight across an empire in a few turns.

No ships left to protect them means you're dead. Ships are the only defence in ES. If you surprise him and he loses his ships, your invasion fleets can take all the worlds in a handful of turns.

I do believe number 2 and 3 are being worked on, besides your rapid response to a new fleet you cannot counter is a new line of ships to be built, which is a relatively simple matter. Ships should always be designed to take a beating so that should you lose your edge you wont lose as fast.

Designing ships to take a beating (I do, I use like 6 weapons on a BS), does not stop their counter from slaughtering them.

The cost of ships is dependent on a systems industry, buying fleets on the frontier will empty your bank after a few ships.

(0.75*industry cost remaining)^1.25. System industry means nothing.

Leveled ships gain massive boosts to HP, it is a very reasonable malus.

I don't think it's reasonable. I like snowball mechanics.

Velaux wrote:
No ships left to protect them means you're dead. Ships are the only defence in ES. If you surprise him and he loses his ships, your invasion fleets can take all the worlds in a handful of turns.

Dependent on the fleets, it is not impossible to fight back, and if you are attacked like that, then you will lose anyway due to the enemy being much more powerful.

Designing ships to take a beating (I do, I use like 6 weapons on a BS), does not stop their counter from slaughtering them.

But it does slow them enough to get new ships out.

(0.75*industry cost remaining)^1.25. System industry means nothing.

What? it means everything, with you massive home worlds easily buying whole fleets, and less developed systems buying only a few ships.

I don't think it's reasonable. I like snowball mechanics.

Then we disagree, as I hate them.